Re: Swift : Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:04 pm  

on_the_charge wrote:

Yes it was Fozzard. I doubt you will ever get 5 props of that class again in the same squad tbh. Perry, Puletua, Clough, McCarthy-Scarsbrook are up there with the best props in Super League when they are on fire which they havent been for the big games granted. If we can add a s***house prop to that Ill be happy.

I agree we may not get another line up of props like that, but having the 5 gives that element of competition for places, no point having an off week as when it comes to the big games you may not be in the line up for the final.

At the moment we could name our 4 props for any final or important game regardless of form.

Add just 1 more quality prop and then suddenly a place in an important game is no longer assured and everyone ups their game week in week out to make sure they are in that position.

I think that is where Wigan have gone well competition for places keeps that intensity up within the squad and therefore the intensity up in the weekly rounds.

If we look at our line up there is no competition for prop, none for hooker, there is some at 2nd row, but not much as Flannery knows he is off next year and sia is a cut above the rest.

So our pack lacks almost any competition really, with only Flannery and Flanaghan competing for places.

I would not suggest rotating the backs, but there has been some competition in the centre spot and some for the wings as injury has helped there.

Re: Swift : Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:38 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

I agree we may not get another line up of props like that, but having the 5 gives that element of competition for places, no point having an off week as when it comes to the big games you may not be in the line up for the final.

At the moment we could name our 4 props for any final or important game regardless of form.

Add just 1 more quality prop and then suddenly a place in an important game is no longer assured and everyone ups their game week in week out to make sure they are in that position.

I think that is where Wigan have gone well competition for places keeps that intensity up within the squad and therefore the intensity up in the weekly rounds.

If we look at our line up there is no competition for prop, none for hooker, there is some at 2nd row, but not much as Flannery knows he is off next year and sia is a cut above the rest.

So our pack lacks almost any competition really, with only Flannery and Flanaghan competing for places.

I would not suggest rotating the backs, but there has been some competition in the centre spot and some for the wings as injury has helped there.

Naming the same four props is what we are doing 99.9% of the time! There is no competition there at all and they no reguardless of form there gunna be picked for any game not just an important one or a final. We have to add a class rough house prop who is no-nonsense! A half back is also a priority as Lomax and Hohaia are just not firing at all as a combination. If we signed a organising 7, moved Lomax to 6 and had Hohaia at Full Back I again would be happy with that. Gaskell will have to bide his time, there is no doubt he has the quality to be a very good Super League player but im undecided as to what position. I think he could become a very good Loose Forward..

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:22 pm  

SaintsFan wrote: Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 112502.stm

SaintsFan wrote: Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 112502.stm

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:27 pm  

SaintsFan isn't the only person to push Hohaia as a fullback because he was part of a World Cup winning side in that position. I'd hope these same people don't think Anthony Stewart is a better winger than Tom Van Vollenhoven because he was on the wing when we won a World Club Challenge.

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:28 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

SaintsFan isn't the only person to push Hohaia as a fullback because he was part of a World Cup winning side in that position. I'd hope these same people don't think Anthony Stewart is a better winger than Tom Van Vollenhoven because he was on the wing when we won a World Club Challenge.

Given how poor Wellens has been and how horrific the half backs have been, it's ridiculous that they've not even tried him there. He'd contribute a hell of a lot more in attack than Wellens and probably defensively too, his pace would get him to balls and tackles Wellens would just arrive at when they are being scored, an example being Hohaia chasing back for the tackle against Warrington when Wellens was huffing and puffing and being passed by the props.

We would have to put up with a few dropped high balls and the odd absolute clanger, something a lot of Saints fans seem to judge as the most important aspect of the game.

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:20 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/6112502.stm

That wasn't the world cup. Beating an understrength Kiwis side in a test series or the Aussies here and there isn't the same as being a world cup winner. Wello was dismal in the world cup I watched (as were his team mates!).

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:23 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

SaintsFan isn't the only person to push Hohaia as a fullback because he was part of a World Cup winning side in that position. I'd hope these same people don't think Anthony Stewart is a better winger than Tom Van Vollenhoven because he was on the wing when we won a World Club Challenge.

I've no idea whether Anthony Stewart ever played for GB/England (before my time) but a player doesn't get to win a world cup without being extremely good in his position, whichever position that might be. The reason why we are tosh at international level is because we don't have that level of player throughout our team.

Re: Swift : Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:42 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

a player doesn't get to win a world cup without being extremely good in his position, whichever position that might be.

Sorry to be a bore but that isnt strictly true - my memory is that there was Brent Webb and Lance Hohaia who were the only players with any kind of experience at Full Back - I cannot remember why webb wasnt chosen (I think it was either Injury or the fact he played in the UK) but it didnt leave a lot of choice to pick from.

What the Kiwis had was a pack that were fed on raw meat for a week before the game and smashed the Ozzy pack - plus a master stroke of playing Thomas Leuluai at hooker with Isaac Luke as backup (Hooker has historically always been the Kiwis weak spot but this turned it around for them) to allow Benji Marshall to play his best game at international level that I can recall. Remember that earlier in the tournament the Kiwis were battered by Australia 30 - 6 with a team that didnt have those changes in it.

Re: Swift : Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:26 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

That wasn't the world cup. Beating an understrength Kiwis side in a test series or the Aussies here and there isn't the same as being a world cup winner. Wello was dismal in the world cup I watched (as were his team mates!).

I'm not saying it is. You said that Wello had never done it against the Aussies. I was just pointing out that he was part of a full strength GB team who beat Australia in their own back yard. In their prime. He scored a try in the process and was excellent all game. As excellent as Hohaia was 4 years ago when he was full back for NZ against Australia in the World cup final. Neither of these games has any significance whatsoever as to who should be playing full back for Saints now though and to keep shaking the "world cup winning fullback" stick is pointless in 2012.

SaintsFan wrote:

I've no idea whether Anthony Stewart ever played for GB/England (before my time) but a player doesn't get to win a world cup without being extremely good in his position, whichever position that might be. The reason why we are tosh at international level is because we don't have that level of player throughout our team.

Not often no. It doesn't automatically qualify him to be the best option at full back for Saints, 2 knee operations and 4 years later though.

The point I made about Anthony Stewart was to say that a team can win anything even with an average player in their side. Who did Spain have up front when they clinched the European Championship this year? The most ridiculed striker in World football, Fernando Torres. Ricky Bibey won Challenge cup medals with Wigan and Saints, likewise Steve Hall won every domestic medal available with Saints.

Re: Swift : Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:33 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Given how poor Wellens has been and how horrific the half backs have been, it's ridiculous that they've not even tried him there. He'd contribute a hell of a lot more in attack than Wellens and probably defensively too, his pace would get him to balls and tackles Wellens would just arrive at when they are being scored, an example being Hohaia chasing back for the tackle against Warrington when Wellens was huffing and puffing and being passed by the props.

We would have to put up with a few dropped high balls and the odd absolute clanger, something a lot of Saints fans seem to judge as the most important aspect of the game.

IF we had to move Wello from full back, and I'm not advocating that we should just stick with Wello if something better comes along, then I'd rather Lee Gaskell played there. I'd love to see him hitting the line with his rangey running style. Think he'd be a revelation there if he was up to the defensive aspect of the job.

Hohaia would be no upgrade on Wellens. I'm sure he's better than Wello at the odd thing a full back would do but overall Wellens is still a much better option. Trying to shoehorn Hohaia into a role because he isn't cutting the mustard in the role he was signed to play isn't particularly fair on Wello.

I know Wello has his limitations. There are other options at Saints as well to replace him in Gaskell, Swift and Makinson. Hohaia wouldn't even be in my thinking.