Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 10:21 am  

Mugwump wrote:

It's precisely this kind of attitude which has seen us slide away into mediocrity. "There's nothing we can do - so let's just huddle down and accept failure". You're this site's very own Wallace Hartley - stoically playing "Nearer My God To Thee" on the deck of the Titanic as she slowly slips beneath the waters and into the oily black depths.

Six weeks ago there were simply no possible centres or wingers available that could improve upon Saints first team regulars. Which is odd given that Josh Jones - with a handful of games under his belt - has looked every bit as useful as Gary Wheeler whilst Adam Swift (yet another wet-behind-the-ears rookie) has weighed in with a brace of hat-tricks and shown glimpses of safe hands and excellent footwork.

People were saying there are no centres or wingers we can realistically get now as we cant or wont pay a transfer fee,not there are non around

Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 11:38 am  

Mugwump wrote:

It's precisely this kind of attitude which has seen us slide away into mediocrity. "There's nothing we can do - so let's just huddle down and accept failure". You're this site's very own Wallace Hartley - stoically playing "Nearer My God To Thee" on the deck of the Titanic as she slowly slips beneath the waters and into the oily black depths.

Six weeks ago there were simply no possible centres or wingers available that could improve upon Saints first team regulars. Which is odd given that Josh Jones - with a handful of games under his belt - has looked every bit as useful as Gary Wheeler whilst Adam Swift (yet another wet-behind-the-ears rookie) has weighed in with a brace of hat-tricks and shown glimpses of safe hands and excellent footwork.

To stretch your analogy then, do you think it would have made much difference to the Titanic's fate if the putative Mr. Hartley had started frantically bailing with a tea cup instead? I hope to God that the likes of Swift and Jones do develop into top-class players and allow us to bin the likes of Shenton in a year or two, but they are a very long way away from that finished article yet, and show me 20 great teenage players and I'll show you 1 or 2 great SL players 3 or 4 years down the line if you're lucky. I prefer not to bin my proven, experienced class players just because they're on a bit of a down in a badly coached and struggling team until I have found proven quality to be able to replace them with if that's all the same to you? Build a backline around the U20s next season as you are apparently so eager to do and then we really would see a team struggling to make a top 8 finish...

Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 6:07 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

To stretch your analogy then, do you think it would have made much difference to the Titanic's fate if the putative Mr. Hartley had started frantically bailing with a tea cup instead? I hope to God that the likes of Swift and Jones do develop into top-class players and allow us to bin the likes of Shenton in a year or two, but they are a very long way away from that finished article yet, and show me 20 great teenage players and I'll show you 1 or 2 great SL players 3 or 4 years down the line if you're lucky. I prefer not to bin my proven, experienced class players just because they're on a bit of a down in a badly coached and struggling team until I have found proven quality to be able to replace them with if that's all the same to you? Build a backline around the U20s next season as you are apparently so eager to do and then we really would see a team struggling to make a top 8 finish...

Correct, Wigan tried it around 2003 - 2005 with Briscoe, Hodgson, Aspinwall, Brown and Robinson. We all know what happened next.

Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 6:25 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Build a backline around the U20s next season as you are apparently so eager to do and then we really would see a team struggling to make a top 8 finish...

Last season we almost had a full backline of u20s at certain times and yet we managed to get to another Grand Final, an achievement we don't look remotely capable of doing this season with almost a full senior team available to us.

Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 9:21 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Correct, Wigan tried it around 2003 - 2005 with Briscoe, Hodgson, Aspinwall, Brown and Robinson. We all know what happened next.

Yeah but at the time they were all turd. Most still are.

Re: Spent force : Mon May 14, 2012 9:38 pm  

On the subject of Shenton while he has played the majority of his career at either 3 or 4 centre he played a number of games on the wing at 2 and 5 for Castleford.

Personally think his height, pace and running style are better suited to the wing.
Centres need to be able to create space for the wingers by agility, guile or strength. He imo possesses none of these attributes.

What he does possess is decent pace, he isnt lightening, but is significantly faster than Gardner. He also is a good broken field runner in that once in space he has a good swerve and evasiveness. Unfortunately at centre we dont see this because he doesnt have the space to get going and doesnt have the strength to bust tackles and agility from a standing start to create something.
Shentons height should also prove an advantage dealing with kicks in both defensive and offensive situations. We have already seen Saints utilise this aspect of his physique on occasion. If played on the wing we could use this even more.

The main worry for me would be how Shenton handles the workrate dealing with kick returns.

Re: Spent force : Tue May 15, 2012 3:58 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

To stretch your analogy then, do you think it would have made much difference to the Titanic's fate if the putative Mr. Hartley had started frantically bailing with a tea cup instead? I hope to God that the likes of Swift and Jones do develop into top-class players and allow us to bin the likes of Shenton in a year or two, but they are a very long way away from that finished article yet, and show me 20 great teenage players and I'll show you 1 or 2 great SL players 3 or 4 years down the line if you're lucky. I prefer not to bin my proven, experienced class players just because they're on a bit of a down in a badly coached and struggling team until I have found proven quality to be able to replace them with if that's all the same to you? Build a backline around the U20s next season as you are apparently so eager to do and then we really would see a team struggling to make a top 8 finish...

Who said anything about building an U20s backline? I didn't. But top marks for putting words in my mouth. Your problem is in laying the blame for Shenton's entire Saints career - pre and post injury - entirely on the shoulders of others. It's the coach's fault (Simmons and now, presumably, Cunningham and Rush). It's his team-mates' fault. He gets no decent service from others etc. etc. blah. blah. blah. In your do-lally world Shenton is completely free from all personal responsibility. But his TEAM MATES & COACH - they CLEARLY have a responsibility to give him the ball on a silver platter as often as he chooses. Which is entirely ridiculous. All players - no matter how bad their service (debatable in the case of Shenton - anyhow), coaching etc. must do the best with the cards they are dealt. And Shenton hasn't.

On the other hand - kids like Jones & Swift have taken precisely the same measly hand (according to you) and called, bluffed etc. their way to the Oceans XIII table. Perhaps their performances will drop off. Who knows? But until such time I'll pick my FORM over your (sic) "reputation".

Re: Spent force : Tue May 15, 2012 4:29 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Correct, Wigan tried it around 2003 - 2005 with Briscoe, Hodgson, Aspinwall, Brown and Robinson. We all know what happened next.

Yeah, they lost patience, got rid of them all, signed Moran, Orr, Calderwood, Vaeliki and almost got relegated.

Re: Spent force : Tue May 15, 2012 4:37 pm  

(Saint) wrote:

Yeah, they lost patience, got rid of them all, signed Moran, Orr, Calderwood, Vaeliki and almost got relegated.

talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire......at least we have made that mistake and learned from it.

on their day saints are a match for any team with the current squad as was seen when you beat Wire and Leeds

Re: Spent force : Tue May 15, 2012 5:20 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

they CLEARLY have a responsibility to give him the ball on a silver platter as often as he chooses.

No... but ocassionally getting it might be nice... Jones has played on the left so sees the ball. Shenton doesn't and hasn't. And is still clearly injured. And Jones, all hyperbole and usual Saints kneejerk supporter BS aside, hasn't exactly set the world on fire yet (not surprising given his age/experience). Shenton towards the end of last season (when he was settling down a bit and pre-injury) was a far better player then Jones has approached being yet.

Saints (rightly or wrongly) spent a large amount of money ordaining Shenton as our #1 centre for the following 3 years and then never bothered passing him the ****ing ball. I'd still love to know how exactly anyone could have expected any different an outcome to his Saints career considering...