Re: Play off system stays. : Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:47 am  

Top Saint wrote:

Then just quote a blanket price for a season ticket which includes all home games or have a rebate system in which the club expects a certain number of cup and play-off games in a season, and if this number is not reached the club refunds a set amount for each game less.
I am suggesting options to fill the ground on cup and play-off days, so if you think this is a bad idea how about coming up with ideas of your own. We all want full stadia on matchdays because of the atmosphere it generates.

Why can't there just be a direct debit option with the season ticket?

If you are willing to buy all home challenge cup tickets then you tick a box and if we get a home draw then it just comes out your account and gets added to your swipe card (if that's possible?)

Would save the 'hassle' of getting to the shop

Re: Play off system stays. : Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:57 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Errrr..... I think you might be getting me confused with someone else matey -

lol There's two Northampton Saints then. My apologies for that.

Northampton_Saint wrote:

you simply can't compare US sporting culture with ours on any level

Why not? Who says we can't?

Northampton_Saint wrote:

On the other hand I could play #7 for Saints next season and they'd still make the playoffs without hardly bothering to turn up most weeks - that's the difference.

That's not a fault of the play off but a fault of the lack of depth of competition. They are two completely different things.

Northampton_Saint wrote:

I'll just move to football supporterdom permanently

I'm sorry you feel that way although it is obviously causing you distress that RL wants and always has decided its champions by a head-to-head competition. I love the game and I love the play off formats to the point that, aside from professionalism, reverting back to it is probably the most exciting innovation we've made in my lifetime. I've yet to hear a good argument against it.

Re: Play off system stays. : Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:25 pm  

England should hand back the soccer world cup they got in 1966. Its meaningless as wasnt decided in a League competition

Similarly Brazil, Argentina, Italy and Germany should hand back their world cups as they were just lucky.

Will Liverpool and Man Utd fans be happy for their clubs to hand back their European cup/ Champions league trophys, because they won them not by being consistent but by qualifying for an elite playoff competition and then raising their game to beat the best.

A good example is Man City, they have shown themselves to be so far the most consistent team in the Premiership, knocking off opponents left right and centre scoring goals like fun. In Europe however they have had to raise the bar, and they are struggling to compete, because the team are just not experienced to playing pressure games against fellow elite sides operating with different footballing styles. It will probably take them a few years to adjust to that level. Once they do they will become like Man Utd today, a team that has shown an uncanny ability to dig itself out of holes and get results when it matters. This is the mark of champions, not an ability to knock over chumps.

Re: Play off system stays. : Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:17 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

This is the mark of champions, not an ability to knock over chumps.

Re: Play off system stays. : Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:58 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

England should hand back the soccer world cup they got in 1966. Its meaningless as wasnt decided in a League competition

Similarly Brazil, Argentina, Italy and Germany should hand back their world cups as they were just lucky.

Will Liverpool and Man Utd fans be happy for their clubs to hand back their European cup/ Champions league trophys, because they won them not by being consistent but by qualifying for an elite playoff competition and then raising their game to beat the best.

A good example is Man City, they have shown themselves to be so far the most consistent team in the Premiership, knocking off opponents left right and centre scoring goals like fun. In Europe however they have had to raise the bar, and they are struggling to compete, because the team are just not experienced to playing pressure games against fellow elite sides operating with different footballing styles. It will probably take them a few years to adjust to that level. Once they do they will become like Man Utd today, a team that has shown an uncanny ability to dig itself out of holes and get results when it matters. This is the mark of champions, not an ability to knock over chumps.

Have to admit that I can't find a single flaw in that argument.

Re: Play off system stays. : Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:27 am  

McClennan wrote:

lol There's two Northampton Saints then. My apologies for that.

Trust me matey, there's most definitely only one of me, unfortunate though that fact undoubtedly is for us all

Look - I don't have a single problem with a 3 game playoff system deciding who your season-long "champions" should be - I really don't. I personally disagree with it fundamentally as a means of deciding who your "best" team is, and it's a brutally unfair and unjust way of doing things no matter what cobblers on the thrill of the chase or whatever is used to justify it, but if that's the way everyone wants the title to be decided then well, so be it.

However, I simply just want somebody... anybody in fact... to give me one single, reasoned and well supported argument over what the point of the 27 games that come before it are. Besides the fact that they generate revenue for the clubs from the punters that is. What is the ****ing point in me shelling out 50 quid for me and the misses plus another 40 quid in diesel to turn up to see any league games at all any more when, for 90% of supporters in the league and for 90% of the games, each and every one is a hollow, vacuous shell with no purpose? I don't care what bloody well happens at the end of the season. Decide the "champions" on a chess match between the coaches in the O/T centre circle, or a staring competition between the captains, or a game of flipping pat-a-cake for all I care. I really, genuinely don't care. Decide what the rules are, let everyone know what they are in advance and then let everyone get on with it. Fantastic. I've no problem with any of that. All I want is for there to be some point to any of the games in the 27 game league season. That's all. And there absolutely is none at all right now unless you're Salford, Bradford or Hull KR. I just simply want there to be some reason for me to want to go out and support my beloved team for more than 5 games next season. Is that too much to ask?

In the football World Cup, all the games (and all the qualifying games leading up to them) are tense, meaningful and exciting. All of them count towards deciding who the eventual trophy winner will be in a very tangible way. In the Premiership exactly the same applies. So too in Europe. So too in the NFL, MLB, Aviva Premiership, NRL, NRA, whatever. So too in SL under the 5 team playoff system. In fact every other league in every other sport in the world decides it's "champion" team by a system that makes an entire season long competition worthwhile whether you ultimately like or agree with the system or not. In the current Superleague setup less than 20% of all the games played over the entire course of the season have any influence or bearing on the outcome of how the trophies are eventually won in any way, shape or form at all. Somebody please explain to me why this is a good thing? I don't want to hear any more specious arguments about "gladiators" or whatever. I just want to know a justification for having a sport where only 5 or 6 out of 33 games a season played count for anything at all, that's all, and a good reason why we should in fact bother with playing the other 27?

Re: Play off system stays. : Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:59 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Trust me matey, there's most definitely only one of me, unfortunate though that fact undoubtedly is for us all

Look - I don't have a single problem with a 3 game playoff system deciding who your season-long "champions" should be - I really don't. I personally disagree with it fundamentally as a means of deciding who your "best" team is, and it's a brutally unfair and unjust way of doing things no matter what cobblers on the thrill of the chase or whatever is used to justify it, but if that's the way everyone wants the title to be decided then well, so be it.

However, I simply just want somebody... anybody in fact... to give me one single, reasoned and well supported argument over what the point of the 27 games that come before it are. Besides the fact that they generate revenue for the clubs from the punters that is. What is the ****ing point in me shelling out 50 quid for me and the misses plus another 40 quid in diesel to turn up to see any league games at all any more when, for 90% of supporters in the league and for 90% of the games, each and every one is a hollow, vacuous shell with no purpose? I don't care what bloody well happens at the end of the season. Decide the "champions" on a chess match between the coaches in the O/T centre circle, or a staring competition between the captains, or a game of flipping pat-a-cake for all I care. I really, genuinely don't care. Decide what the rules are, let everyone know what they are in advance and then let everyone get on with it. Fantastic. I've no problem with any of that. All I want is for there to be some point to any of the games in the 27 game league season. That's all. And there absolutely is none at all right now unless you're Salford, Bradford or Hull KR. I just simply want there to be some reason for me to want to go out and support my beloved team for more than 5 games next season. Is that too much to ask?

In the football World Cup, all the games (and all the qualifying games leading up to them) are tense, meaningful and exciting. All of them count towards deciding who the eventual trophy winner will be in a very tangible way. In the Premiership exactly the same applies. So too in Europe. So too in the NFL, MLB, Aviva Premiership, NRL, NRA, whatever. So too in SL under the 5 team playoff system. In fact every other league in every other sport in the world decides it's "champion" team by a system that makes an entire season long competition worthwhile whether you ultimately like or agree with the system or not. In the current Superleague setup less than 20% of all the games played over the entire course of the season have any influence or bearing on the outcome of how the trophies are eventually won in any way, shape or form at all. Somebody please explain to me why this is a good thing? I don't want to hear any more specious arguments about "gladiators" or whatever. I just want to know a justification for having a sport where only 5 or 6 out of 33 games a season played count for anything at all, that's all, and a good reason why we should in fact bother with playing the other 27?

The bit i have highlighted is why you are having issues with the playoffs. You have dismissed everything else as meaningless, when infact every single round of the standard league structure is part of the preliminaries to the playoffs, as it decides whether you get into the final mix and what advantages you get in the final mix.

This is no different to the soccer world cup, however for some reason you are treating that as different.

It smacks to me of a mental block, in that you dont like RL having playoffs, and therefore have created a justification in your mind why it doesnt work. When it comes to Soccer and other sports that operate playoffs system, you block this out as it doesnt fit your world view, and is akin to a computer saying " cannot compute, am ignoring command" .Your brain therefore accept a kind of psuedo reality bubble in which Soccer and other sports arent actually operating a league structure followed by a playoff system. You can then accept that these sports offer excitement on a week to week basis.

Re: Play off system stays. : Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:42 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

<snip>

Again sorry you see it that way, however perhaps it would help if you could put together your reasons why a league ladder format is preferable because, as I stated previously, I've yet to hear a good argument for it in RL. Most of your points are arguments against the play offs which is not an argument for a league ladder.

Re: Play off system stays. : Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:16 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Again sorry you see it that way, however perhaps it would help if you could put together your reasons why a league ladder format is preferable because, as I stated previously, I've yet to hear a good argument for it in RL. Most of your points are arguments against the play offs which is not an argument for a league ladder.

I'll say it again - I have no particular major issues with a playoff system to decide who the champions should be. I don't like it personally: for me using a one-off, no second chances game to determine who the best team in the league is for an entire season long competition is fundamentally unfair. No matter how great or good a team is, anyone can have a bad day at the office, or bad luck with refereeing decisions, or with injuries leading up to or during the game to artificially skew the result e.g. O/T both this season and last, leading to unfair and completely unrepresentative "champions" being crowned for the season. Those types of things tend to even themselves up over the whole course of a season which is why a league points system is inately and unarguably a fairer means of determining who the "best" team in the competition overall is. I think you'll find I'm not the one with the "mental block" if you good folks are incapable of recognising this simple basic fact...

However, I accept and can live with the fact that maybe in RL it is appropriate and a good way of doing things to decide "champions" by a playoff system. As you all say, the Champions League, World Cup and inumerable other competitions do it and we all live with it perfectly comfortably. I used to live with it perfectly comfortably in SL under the top 5 system in fact. There used to be a big advantage to finishing top 2 in Superleague as doing so gave a team a massive advantage over the rest. It made the 27 game competition leading up to it worthwhile, exciting and meaningful. It made hard won wins against the odds thrilling and uplifting, and dire collapses against meagre opposition soul crushing and depressing because those results mattered towards deciding final league position and therefore your chances of success in becoming "champion". In short, under the top 5 system, the league competition mattered...

The simple fact now, however, and the fact that you are clearly having the "mental blocks" over, is that league position in the current top 8 system is utterly irrelevant and doesn't matter anymore... Both Leeds and Saints demonstrated graphically last year that finishing top 2 offers practically no advantage whatsoever. With the utter dearth of talent available in our game, teams like Saints and Leeds are all but guaranteed a top 8 spot every season. Given that finishing 8th grants almost no advantage over finishing 1st at all now that renders all the league games played before the playoffs utterly irrelevant for us. The entire 27 game league season now serves no purpose whatsoever in any way, shape or form except to decide which team of 3 possible lame duck contenders is going to get the last playoff spot. In the current playoff system a top team is far better off cruising through the first 85% of the year, putting in minimal effort, blooding youngsters, resting key players, avoiding injuries and saving their efforts for the last couple of months of the season only. In short, the whole 27 game season is a meaningless, pointless string of friendlies now. THAT IS WHAT I HAVE THE ISSUE OVER!!!!!

Again - I will ask the question of all concerned: what is the point of the 27 friendlies we must hack our way through next year before the season actually starts? Why on earth should any of us bother turning up next season before October starts? By all means decide the champions based on the result of 3 games. Just don't waste my time and money having the 27 that mean nothing at all before it. Either make those 27 games mean something or scrap the bloody things altogether - that's all I'm asking for....