Re: Injuries : Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:58 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Lack of focus isn't Gary Wheeler's problem. Lack of game time is. By plonking him the reserves you could well end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy. So far the lad has done little wrong with the opportunities he's been given. He just needs more of them. My guess is that if he could string together a dozen or more consecutive games he'd be a completely different player.

Yes. He'd be a member of the team rather than Rugby Leagues answer to Darren Anderton.

Re: Injuries : Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:23 pm  

Ski wrote:

Yes. He'd be a member of the team rather than Rugby Leagues answer to Darren Anderton.

For every "injury prone" rookie that doesn't fulfill his promise there's a star who just needs that little bit of help and patience to shine. Think of Tommy Martyn who eventually succeeded in spite of years of cruel luck. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have got rid of him (we almost did under Hanley).

Re: Injuries : Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:41 pm  

I have heard that Arnold is doubtful with a dislocated bank balance

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:23 am  

Mugwump wrote:

For every "injury prone" rookie that doesn't fulfill his promise there's a star who just needs that little bit of help and patience to shine. Think of Tommy Martyn who eventually succeeded in spite of years of cruel luck. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have got rid of him (we almost did under Hanley).

Good point, I suppose. I'm a huge fan of Wheeler as a player and think he looks very natural in the centre, but I can't help thinking that getting injured in practically every game he plays for the 1sts, followed by a months lay off, isn't doing him any good at all.
Perhaps we've put him back in too soon? A few games in the reserves may help steady him for first team action.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:08 am  

Mugwump wrote:

For every "injury prone" rookie that doesn't fulfill his promise there's a star who just needs that little bit of help and patience to shine. Think of Tommy Martyn who eventually succeeded in spite of years of cruel luck. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have got rid of him (we almost did under Hanley).

Martyn got a couple of horror injuries that kept him out for a year at a time. Sean Long had the same experience. That, I think, you can put down to bad luck. Wheeler, on the other hand, just seems to pick up minor knocks every time he plays that keep him out for the next two or three weeks. The same goes for Eastmond. That seems to me more like a lack of resilience than bad luck. Hopefully it's something he'll grow out of.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:40 pm  

Dux wrote:

Martyn got a couple of horror injuries that kept him out for a year at a time. Sean Long had the same experience. That, I think, you can put down to bad luck. Wheeler, on the other hand, just seems to pick up minor knocks every time he plays that keep him out for the next two or three weeks. The same goes for Eastmond. That seems to me more like a lack of resilience than bad luck. Hopefully it's something he'll grow out of.

I find it very hard to believe that - for want of a better term - too many "soft" players are given first team squad numbers at Saints. Whilst the junior grades aren't anywhere close to SL in terms of ferocity they are still tough. If Wheeler is prone to crying off he'd have been so in the reserves. I accept that Wheeler did pick up injuries in the academy - but many were bad enough to put ANY player on the treatment table.

Look, it's not just Wheeler. Lomax, Eastmond, Foster and the rest have all been out with niggling injuries recently. I think this is more a reflection of their physical immaturity than anything else. I don't care how talented you are - if you've not matured physically (usually between 21 and 22) and you're being asked to play repeatedly against SL's leviathans (who may be four inches taller and two stones heavier than you) the end result will be injuries.

Look at boxing. Think of the colossal advantages 7lb extra on the frame of your opponent gives. Ricky Hatton went from being the most feared man in his weight division to a huffing, puffing featherfist by moving up just one division.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:47 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I find it very hard to believe that - for want of a better term - too many "soft" players are given first team squad numbers at Saints. Whilst the junior grades aren't anywhere close to SL in terms of ferocity they are still tough. If Wheeler is prone to crying off he'd have been so in the reserves. I accept that Wheeler did pick up injuries in the academy - but many were bad enough to put ANY player on the treatment table.

Look, it's not just Wheeler. Lomax, Eastmond, Foster and the rest have all been out with niggling injuries recently. I think this is more a reflection of their physical immaturity than anything else. I don't care how talented you are - if you've not matured physically (usually between 21 and 22) and you're being asked to play repeatedly against SL's leviathans (who may be four inches taller and two stones heavier than you) the end result will be injuries.

Look at boxing. Think of the colossal advantages 7lb extra on the frame of your opponent gives. Ricky Hatton went from being the most feared man in his weight division to a huffing, puffing featherfist by moving up just one division.

Whilst I can see where you're coming from, some players just ARE more prone to injuries than others. There is every possibility that Wheeler is one of these players. I hope not, but he might well be.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:34 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Whilst I can see where you're coming from, some players just ARE more prone to injuries than others. There is every possibility that Wheeler is one of these players. I hope not, but he might well be.

I don't believe in the idea that a player can be "injury prone". Or not least the commonly held notion.

Yes, I accept that a part of the body - say a ligament, or a bone - may be weak for some time (or permanently) after injury and that the player may be prone to re-injuring himself because of that weakness. I also accept that some people may suffer from congenital conditions which render bones weak, tendons stiff etc. (although I doubt such people could make it to academy level, much less SL).

I think the jury is out on the theory of "Pain Threshold". It's commonly believed that someone can function whilst suffering the same injury as another who finds it impossible to. But given the uniqueness and vast complexity of individual physiology and neurology how could you even begin to argue that the injury (and its effects) are EXACTLY the same for both parites?

At a more general level - human beings are highly adept at discovering patterns in nature. But we often get things wrong and attribute meaning where there is none at all. It's easy to find meaning when we see a player repeatedly fall victim to a succession of injuries whilst others around him stay injury free for months. But how reliable is the assumption? Perhaps he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - many times. To many this doesn't sound convincing - but we witness improbable events all about us.
If you flip a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row do you see some grand plan at work (some do) - or do you just say - "that's lucky"?

Yes, Gary Wheeler's had a ban run of injuries. It seems odd. But could this just be ten-heads-in-a-row played out on a bigger scale?

And how do we KNOW for sure that if we could put James Roby (arguably the toughest lad at Saints) in EXACTLY the same circumstances as those surrounding Wheeler when he was injured he would be completely unscathed?

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:37 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

And how do we KNOW for sure that if we could put James Roby (arguably the toughest lad at Saints) in EXACTLY the same circumstances as those surrounding Wheeler when he was injured he would be completely unscathed?

We don't. What we DO know, however, is that Roby is not injury prone and Wheeler is. Whether you agree with the definition of "injury prone" and its application, Wheeler is prone to getting injured and Roby is not.

You're right that it might be a huge dose of "wrong place wrong time", I don't dispute that and I desperately hope you're right and that Wheeler goes on a run without injury now, but frankly some human beings just have stronger bodies than others for whatever reason.

Re: Injuries : Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:58 pm  

Anyhoooo,
With Eastmond of of the game on Sat, we'll need eith er Wheeler or Lomax to play 6. If its Lomax, a centre will be required out of Wheeler, Makinson, Foster, (Ashurst maybe) or shuffle round to use Flanders, Meli, or Sia (if fit) or even recall Armstrong.