Re: Well that was ugly : Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:48 pm  

SecondRowSaint wrote: We'd never get Soliola or Sims. Soliola is a key player for the Raiders, he won their POTY last season and does a lot with their youth teams. Sims is a SOO player in the making and will probably debut this season for NSW. Our ins and outs clear out a hell of a lot of cap space. I don't think it's unreasonable to think we could get at least one. Josh Jackson at Bulldogs is another who'd be a a great pick up but he's probably in the category above the 2 mentioned. The point is there are options which mean we shouldn't just bumble on blind offering good contracts to mediocre players like LMS. duke street 10 wrote: Pretty sure Luke Gale isn't o.o.c at the end of the season. Last contract info I can find on Gale is: http://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/n ... -luke-gale and zerotackle has him ooc too - unless it can be proved otherwise?

SecondRowSaint wrote: We'd never get Soliola or Sims. Soliola is a key player for the Raiders, he won their POTY last season and does a lot with their youth teams. Sims is a SOO player in the making and will probably debut this season for NSW. Our ins and outs clear out a hell of a lot of cap space. I don't think it's unreasonable to think we could get at least one. Josh Jackson at Bulldogs is another who'd be a a great pick up but he's probably in the category above the 2 mentioned. The point is there are options which mean we shouldn't just bumble on blind offering good contracts to mediocre players like LMS. duke street 10 wrote: Pretty sure Luke Gale isn't o.o.c at the end of the season. Last contract info I can find on Gale is: http://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/n ... -luke-gale and zerotackle has him ooc too - unless it can be proved otherwise?

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:28 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Our ins and outs clear out a hell of a lot of cap space. I don't think it's unreasonable to think we could get at least one. Josh Jackson at Bulldogs is another who'd be a a great pick up but he's probably in the category above the 2 mentioned. The point is there are options which mean we shouldn't just bumble on blind offering good contracts to mediocre players like LMS.

I would still keep LMS he is our best player for Tackle Busts and Clean Breaks at the moment he is also in our top 3 for Metres, Tackles and Off Loads so his workmate is good, its only his discipline where he is a waste of space. Biggest worry for me is Savelio he's not kicked on this season, we want the "angry Sav" not the stroll up laid back one.

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:32 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I would still keep LMS he is our best player for Tackle Busts and Clean Breaks at the moment he is also in our top 3 for Metres, Tackles and Off Loads so his workmate is good, its only his discipline where he is a waste of space. Biggest worry for me is Savelio he's not kicked on this season, we want the "angry Sav" not the stroll up laid back one.

Do you not think it's a coincidence that LMS only had two good seasons and that's the two when he's in his contract renewal season?

Just saying like

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:35 am  

St pete wrote:

Do you not think it's a coincidence that LMS only had two good seasons and that's the two when he's in his contract renewal season?

Just saying like

Just keep giving him a 12 month renewable contract, that will sort him out, then we don't need to go back into the past to find out when he was a waste of space.

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:49 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I would still keep LMS he is our best player for Tackle Busts and Clean Breaks at the moment he is also in our top 3 for Metres, Tackles and Off Loads so his workmate is good.

So LMS is the one to attack, I agree fully with Judder, without him you would be in a mess, the pack is weak and under performing except for Louis, one prop may be Big but England quality Never, and I said this from the start. Makes me laugh with the Sky team how excited they get when forward make two steps forward these days??

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:05 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I would still keep LMS he is our best player for Tackle Busts and Clean Breaks at the moment he is also in our top 3 for Metres, Tackles and Off Loads so his workmate is good, its only his discipline where he is a waste of space. Biggest worry for me is Savelio he's not kicked on this season, we want the "angry Sav" not the stroll up laid back one.

Last week I did a comparison of stats between LMS, Ben Murdoch-Masilla at Salford, Matt Ashurst (remember him?) at Wakefield and Ukuma Ta'ai at Huddersfield. All had played in all games this year ( 8 ), and all are OOC. (I was gonna compare with Mitch Achurch as well, to complete the bottom 4 comparisons, but he had only played 3 games limiting the value of comparison.)

Despite being top for breaks, tackle busts and carries, he was bottom for metres made. For me, it means 90% of the time he is completely ineffective. He was also bottom for tackling (though Saints are now dead last for tackles made this season) and the second worst tackle completion % after BMM. Interestingly, he has conceded the second fewest penalties out of the 4.

Savelio is getting disheartened because he doesn't want to play front row. He said this at the start of the year and KC said he had come up with a solution. Since then hes played in the front row. He hasn't thrown his rattle like Hampshire, but a couple of games at lock would surely bring some energy to his game. I also think hes slimmed down too much for the front row anyway.

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:33 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Despite being top for breaks, tackle busts and carries, he was bottom for metres made. For me, it means 90% of the time he is completely ineffective. He was also bottom for tackling (though Saints are now dead last for tackles made this season) and the second worst tackle completion % after BMM. Interestingly, he has conceded the second fewest penalties out of the 4.

For me that doesn't say a lot for the rest of the team, Walmsley, Richards and Sav are not playing well this year, Greenwood and Thompson have only just started coming up with expected performances, Tasi is still under review. In my opinion its Amor, Vea and LMS who are the consistent performers so far and doing the longer workload minutes.

I think it was way back in 2012 when LMS was a waste of space, we lost James Graham to OZ and our pack couldn't take up the workload rate, LMS was expected to take that extra load but he didn't and became a "high five showboater", as St Pete says he picked up a bit when he was under contract review. Since then he was nominated to one of the "senior player" responsibility roles and in my view he has been doing OK with the exception of his discipline moments, I think LMS is the least of our worries and is one for future review at a later date.

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:19 am  

I've been critical of LMS, but, whatever his motivations, I don't think anyone can reasonably question his effort this year. What bothers me about him these days is that he has plenty of good qualities, but he has shortcomings in whichever of the positions he tends to play in. He's not grizzly and tough enough to be a genuine out-and-out prop. Physically he's most suited to second row, where his size and pace should make him a real strike threat, but his obsession with cutting inside and running laterally back the middle (this, I suspect, is where a lot of his tackle busts come from) both limits his own effectiveness and starves the players outside him of possession. That leaves loose forward, but we have quite a few of those, and, if managed correctly, Savelio could turn out to be one of the best in the country. So I'm struggling to think of convincing reasons to hold on to LMS.

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:30 am  

Dux wrote:

I've been critical of LMS, but, whatever his motivations, I don't think anyone can reasonably question his effort this year. What bothers me about him these days is that he has plenty of good qualities, but he has shortcomings in whichever of the positions he tends to play in. He's not grizzly and tough enough to be a genuine out-and-out prop. Physically he's most suited to second row, where his size and pace should make him a real strike threat, but his obsession with cutting inside and running laterally back the middle (this, I suspect, is where a lot of his tackle busts come from) both limits his own effectiveness and starves the players outside him of possession. That leaves loose forward, but we have quite a few of those, and, if managed correctly, Savelio could turn out to be one of the best in the country. So I'm struggling to think of convincing reasons to hold on to LMS.

Dux wrote:

I've been critical of LMS, but, whatever his motivations, I don't think anyone can reasonably question his effort this year. What bothers me about him these days is that he has plenty of good qualities, but he has shortcomings in whichever of the positions he tends to play in. He's not grizzly and tough enough to be a genuine out-and-out prop. Physically he's most suited to second row, where his size and pace should make him a real strike threat, but his obsession with cutting inside and running laterally back the middle (this, I suspect, is where a lot of his tackle busts come from) both limits his own effectiveness and starves the players outside him of possession. That leaves loose forward, but we have quite a few of those, and, if managed correctly, Savelio could turn out to be one of the best in the country. So I'm struggling to think of convincing reasons to hold on to LMS.

KC sees him as a centre

Re: Well that was ugly : Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:33 am  

Judder Man wrote:

For me that doesn't say a lot for the rest of the team, Walmsley, Richards and Sav are not playing well this year, Greenwood and Thompson have only just started coming up with expected performances, Tasi is still under review. In my opinion its Amor, Vea and LMS who are the consistent performers so far and doing the longer workload minutes.
I think it was way back in 2012 when LMS was a waste of space, we lost James Graham to OZ and our pack couldn't take up the workload rate, LMS was expected to take that extra load but he didn't and became a "high five showboater", as St Pete says he picked up a bit when he was under contract review. Since then he was nominated to one of the "senior player" responsibility roles and in my view he has been doing OK with the exception of his discipline moments, I think LMS is the least of our worries and is one for future review at a later date.

Just because he's a lower priority worry, doesn't mean he's not a worry - same with Vea. I think were in a position where we have a group of senior players who, as a group aren't where they need to be (whether that's because they're not good enough, or the coaching and tactics aren't good enough could be debated until the cows come home). I think a lot of fans (myself included) would prefer to see the club gutted of this group, and start again with our recruitment moving forward. Whilst the agreed intelligence says that a settled squad with minor changes every year is the key to consistent success, every now and then it is necessary to wipe the board clean (and its easy to point to Warrington's early season success this year compared to last year).

All that aside, LMS fundamentally isn't an international class backrower. With the cap space we should free up this year, there is the opportunity to chase players who are in that bracket (such as, imo the 3 I named) - if we cant get the right person on the right deal, and give LMS a 1 year extension while we keep looking, its not as bad as having to keep some others on the ooc list - but if we can its "thanks for the effort, best of luck" from me.