Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:53 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

I wondered where you had got to? A bit of sense at last. Just two things though. It's a bit early to rate Burns and I think you underestimate Tomkins, especially his defence and leadership qualities. But it's all opinion.

I don't know what it is with Tomkins mate but I just don't get it with him. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad player, far from it, but he is overrated in general for me. He will probably be better in 2015 than 2014 but he was distinctly average last year.

I rate Burns because he provides that aggression and competitive edge that we need. He also knows how to pick a pass too, but it's that "bit of mongrel" in him that I like the most.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:56 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

This.
A very balanced summary and personally I hope that Catalan will also be in the mix

Catalans have some outstanding individuals and in Carney they have someone who potentially could be the best player in the competition.

However their away form will hold them back from winning trophies I feel. At home they can beat anyone and everyone but in the past they've always been inconsistent and unreliable on their travels.

If they manage to overcome that then they are real genuine contenders.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:40 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

I don't know what it is with Tomkins mate but I just don't get it with him. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad player, far from it, but he is overrated in general for me. He will probably be better in 2015 than 2014 but he was distinctly average last year.

I rate Burns because he provides that aggression and competitive edge that we need. He also knows how to pick a pass too, but it's that "bit of mongrel" in him that I like the most.

Re Tomkins I'm not sure there are many second rowers capable of scoring the try at Wembley in 2011 and at Headingley against the Exiles in the same season. I rate him as a leader and he will be our next captain.

Re Burns. He had a poor first season at Hull KR but improved drastically in his second when Dobson had gone leaving him to call the plays and take the kicks. He's back to playing second fiddle now and at a much bigger club too. I'm certainly not writing him off but let's see how he fits in first. I do agree about the mongrel bit though.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:47 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

So pace means nothing?

Give a player a full skillset in any sport then add pace and you have the full package. How many players have you looked at and thought "if only he had pace"?

Or have I taken your comments out of context perhaps?

Pace is a big asset, no doubt.

Many on here have taken my posts and either can't read or have deliberately taken them out of context.

I don't rate Gelling at all and I'm not a fan of Bowen, who in tight games is a liability for me. I said Sarginson has improved a lot but needs to run a centre's line more. Too often yet, he takes the winger's space or cuts in. That's fine against lazy defences but again in big games won't cut it. Let's have some context, Louie Macarthy-Scarsbrook was able to defend him pretty comfortably at OT. I've openly stated that Wigan's wingers are quality; I've stated their back row is good with O'Loughlin the best player in the country and I've said McIlorum is enormous for them (their most important player for me). I rate Farrell highly also. Their kids all look good potential but still have it all to prove and only time will tell. Smith and Williams I labelled 'pedestrian' because they run the same system that all Wigan's youth do and they've been shown to struggle hugely when teams defend that system properly. Take them out of their comfort zone and how good are they ? Smith quickly looks a run of the mill scrum half whilst Williams, we don't know yet but he's hardly looked like breaking a tight game yet IMO for Wigan.

My thoughts on their props are that Crosby is decent but little else and he's been hammered by Saints' props on a couple of occasions. I haven't commented on Flower save his incident at OT at all. I'm not a huge fan of Mossop. He's a workhorse who'll do the donkey work but is he an upgrade on Taylor ? Not a chance. I've stated Tautau is a good signing (their best IMO as he's a quality prop forward). Patrick is an impact prop who'll look awesome against lesser sides where Wigan invariably run up 50+ points but I'm not convinced he'll go anywhere near as well against bigger packs.

Nowhere have I absolutely slated Wigan's side anywhere, I've hammered their fans because most of them leave themselves open to absolute ridicule. Their fault, not mine. Wigan's team is still one of best in SL. Nowhere have I said anything else. Anyone with a brain can see it's between Saints, Wigan and Warrington. It's not rocket science.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:58 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Re Tomkins I'm not sure there are many second rowers capable of scoring the try at Wembley in 2011 and at Headingley against the Exiles in the same season. I rate him as a leader and he will be our next captain.

Re Burns. He had a poor first season at Hull KR but improved drastically in his second when Dobson had gone leaving him to call the plays and take the kicks. He's back to playing second fiddle now and at a much bigger club too. I'm certainly not writing him off but let's see how he fits in first. I do agree about the mongrel bit though.

Re Tomkins: as with oh so many players, the one who came back from Union looks a shadow of the one who left - I've seen nothing thus far to suggest Tomkins can regain the form he once had - he still could do, but it's doubtful imo.

Re Burns: I think the fact Walsh and Burns have played together before and had a partnership is of huge benefit, and Burns has already said hell play a more free role, leaving the organisation to Walsh, everything we've been missing!

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:51 pm  

SLS wrote:

Pace is a big asset, no doubt.

Many on here have taken my posts and either can't read or have deliberately taken them out of context.

I don't rate Gelling at all and I'm not a fan of Bowen, who in tight games is a liability for me. I said Sarginson has improved a lot but needs to run a centre's line more. Too often yet, he takes the winger's space or cuts in. That's fine against lazy defences but again in big games won't cut it. Let's have some context, Louie Macarthy-Scarsbrook was able to defend him pretty comfortably at OT. I've openly stated that Wigan's wingers are quality; I've stated their back row is good with O'Loughlin the best player in the country and I've said McIlorum is enormous for them (their most important player for me). I rate Farrell highly also. Their kids all look good potential but still have it all to prove and only time will tell. Smith and Williams I labelled 'pedestrian' because they run the same system that all Wigan's youth do and they've been shown to struggle hugely when teams defend that system properly. Take them out of their comfort zone and how good are they ? Smith quickly looks a run of the mill scrum half whilst Williams, we don't know yet but he's hardly looked like breaking a tight game yet IMO for Wigan.

My thoughts on their props are that Crosby is decent but little else and he's been hammered by Saints' props on a couple of occasions. I haven't commented on Flower save his incident at OT at all. I'm not a huge fan of Mossop. He's a workhorse who'll do the donkey work but is he an upgrade on Taylor ? Not a chance. I've stated Tautau is a good signing (their best IMO as he's a quality prop forward). Patrick is an impact prop who'll look awesome against lesser sides where Wigan invariably run up 50+ points but I'm not convinced he'll go anywhere near as well against bigger packs.

Nowhere have I absolutely slated Wigan's side anywhere, I've hammered their fans because most of them leave themselves open to absolute ridicule. Their fault, not mine. Wigan's team is still one of best in SL. Nowhere have I said anything else. Anyone with a brain can see it's between Saints, Wigan and Warrington. It's not rocket science.

I think this is a well argued and articulate post. Now don't you feel better for not slagging anyone off and making the effort to be reasoned?

You obviously know a lot about the game and study it closely but until now you have rather hidden it.

I know you don't like us much but not all Wigan fans fall into the ridiculous category just as Saints fans are not all paragons of reasoning.

i think you may just be made to eat some of your words and there will be many on here who will love that, even amongst your own fans. But not me. Keep posting. Just make it reasonable

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:08 pm  

Ourselves and Wigan are quite evenly matched, but I do think we have the edge. This is mainly because of our half backs. We have two experienced talented backs who have played with each other before. Wigan will have a young player at 6 and Smith at 7. Smith is solid, but doesn't have the ability of a player like Walsh, who can drag you out of a huge hole and lead you to victory.

In terms of speed, Wigan probably have the edge. From what I've seen Charnley is the fastest in the competition and his try scoring rate is second to none. We have improved in recent years though from having a slow and old backline, to a young and fast backline. I don't think it's a coincidence that we've improved since.

Both packs are great, probably the best two in the competition. I think we are the best in terms of ability, but Wigan's are the best in terms of attitude. Our packs performance can fluctuate hugely. For example, LMS and Masoe can be devastating or anonymous, there's no real middle ground. Wigan seem more consistent than us in this area.

It will probably be us and Wigan fighting it out for trophies this year again. And with both trophies being decided in finals, picking a winner is almost impossible. Both sides can bear each other. For us to beat Wigan, our pack needs to man up again. We did last June and in the Grand Final and won both times.

I agree with other comments about Catalans. The signings of Tonga, Casty and particularly Carney transform the team. I can see them making the top 4. Their home form is never a concern, it's just the away form that needs improvement, and I think they will. I think Warrington will improve too. With Clarke coming in and if they can find a consistent 6 and 7, they'll threaten too. This is the year Leeds will fall off IMO. The side is ageing hugely and a 6th place finish wouldn't surprise me.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:31 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Re Burns. He had a poor first season at Hull KR but improved drastically in his second when Dobson had gone leaving him to call the plays and take the kicks. He's back to playing second fiddle now and at a much bigger club too. I'm certainly not writing him off but let's see how he fits in first. I do agree about the mongrel bit though.

Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:31 am  

Burns is an improvement by the very fact he is a halfback. Whether he is a good or average halfback will make little difference as a side we are much improved with 2 halfbacks in the team.

It's been many years to get to the stage that most teams take for granted.

Re: New Year Sales at Wigan : Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:04 am  

SaintsFan wrote: Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury. Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. http://www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.

SaintsFan wrote: Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury. Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. http://www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.