Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:56 pm  

Allez wrote:

But at 65 minutes what exactly do they need to be 'qualified' for? You are contradicting your own argument.

I'm not defending his selection by the way but, if the game is 'already won' then surely a solid player to merely maintain the status quo, not make mistakes, lead the side and play in the backs or the forwards is an ideal substitute?

If you were 2 - 0 up in a football Cup final with 70 minutes gone would you bring on a steady eddie defender or a flashy forward? I can fully understand why he's on the bench and the abuse he gets is simply because he does what he does well, no fuss, just gets on with it and is the safest pair of hands we have. I'd pick him as a 65 min sub ahead of Lance, Wheeler or any of the others.

Totally agree with your theory but Wellens is not the correct choice. With Masoe striving for fitness the sub should be frankie or another prop.

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:45 pm  

I was at the Western Samoa v New Zealand game at Warrington and he was far from a liability. I really wish we had signed him. For me, when he returns to full fitness will potentially be one of the most exciting and devastating forwards to play in superleague.
It pains me to say but your forward pack is outrageously strong and again for me could potentially be one of the best Sl has seen.

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:48 pm  

Allez wrote:

But at 65 minutes what exactly do they need to be 'qualified' for? You are contradicting your own argument.

I'm not defending his selection by the way but, if the game is 'already won' then surely a solid player to merely maintain the status quo, not make mistakes, lead the side and play in the backs or the forwards is an ideal substitute?

If you were 2 - 0 up in a football Cup final with 70 minutes gone would you bring on a steady eddie defender or a flashy forward? I can fully understand why he's on the bench and the abuse he gets is simply because he does what he does well, no fuss, just gets on with it and is the safest pair of hands we have. I'd pick him as a 65 min sub ahead of Lance, Wheeler or any of the others.

You are just doing the reverse of what you allege other people are doing. You are justifying everything based on who he is. I just cannot see any justification for his selection in the 17. In fact I cannot see any reason at all to even consider him.

I'm 100% sure Brown doesn't actually want to use his last bench spot for a player to play 15 minutes at the end of the game. He is only doing that with Wellens because he knows how poor a player he is (As a forward he is without question the weakest player in Saints' first team squad). What would be better is for that spot to be used for a player who actually contributes to the fact we're winning after 65 minutes, not to stroll on, do a couple of tackles then do the handshakes and waves to the crowd. The fact Wellens only plays once the game is done suggests to me that it isn't Brown's decision. I don't think he'd bring him on at all if the game was still in the balance.

It's a ridiculous idea that could cost us dear this season. Playing with 16 has been manageable so far, but what happens when we're finding it more difficult? In the derby or at Leeds or Huddersfield. Even worse in the cup semi or final? How happy would you be if we lost because we'd played a man light for the majority of the game?

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:00 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

But none of that is wellens fault, yet he bares the brunt of it (unfairly)

I'm not convinced by that. Brown doesn't seem convinced by the idea of having Wellens on the bench, or he'd use him before the game was completely over. As I put in the other post, I reckon if we were losing or drawing a game, he wouldn't bring him on at all.

There is also an element of professional pride, something I'd love to discuss with Wello personally, to hear how he justifies it. His selection is without any merit at all. As a forward he simply offers nothing with the ball and he's very weak defensively too in the pack. Yet he's happy to play that role anyway. If I were Wello, having played at international level and having been a legend for the club, I'd be considering if it was the right thing to be doing. He said a lot of the right things when he was removed from fullback, saying it wasn't right to hold Lomax back anymore. So what right does he have to deny the forward players their chance? I wonder how the likes of Savelio, Flanagan, Laffranchi, Forster, Hand etc feel that a shirt and a chance for valuable experience or game time is being denied?

Although it's horrible to say because of what he achieved, Wello would have retired two years ago if he had any pride in himself. The decline in performance was dramatic and should have been acknowledged. Him remaining on the playing staff this year is cringeworthy and I'm 100% sure he's uncomfortable with it as well.

A few on here justify it by saying he's the captain. His captaincy skills have been much discussed on here as well. We've not seen the big bird impressions or referee abusing this year as he's not been on the field until the opposition has given up and started crying yet. But he's no leader on the field that's for sure.

If he's the wonderful influence off the field they say he is, make him a coach. Give him a tracksuit and send him on with the messages, kicking tee and water bottles. There is still a role for him at Saints, it just doesn't have to be pretending to be a Super League forward.

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:08 am  

Saddened! wrote:

I'm not convinced by that. Brown doesn't seem convinced by the idea of having Wellens on the bench, or he'd use him before the game was completely over. As I put in the other post, I reckon if we were losing or drawing a game, he wouldn't bring him on at all.

Today's saddened conspiracy! I was responding to your other post but then you wrote this. He was brought on much earlier against hull, and I'd hardly say the game was won by that point, so it's really rather a mute point. As to your point in the other comment about were playing with 16 men, both anderson and McDermott didn't use a sub in the hudds vs Leeds game (arguably the fastest game of the year so far) - so they're literally playing with 16. If wellens comes on for 15 minutes once the game is won, that's 15 minutes of rest for walmsley or Amor or soliola to rest to continue their form. He's not likely to cost us the game, and is dependable (it's not like he's missing every tackle, dropping every ball etc) and just does the job he's obviously been given.

Saddened! wrote:

There is also an element of professional pride, something I'd love to discuss with Wello personally, to hear how he justifies it. His selection is without any merit at all. As a forward he simply offers nothing with the ball and he's very weak defensively too in the pack. Yet he's happy to play that role anyway. If I were Wello, having played at international level and having been a legend for the club, I'd be considering if it was the right thing to be doing. He said a lot of the right things when he was removed from fullback, saying it wasn't right to hold Lomax back anymore. So what right does he have to deny the forward players their chance? I wonder how the likes of Savelio, Flanagan, Laffranchi, Forster, Hand etc feel that a shirt and a chance for valuable experience or game time is being denied?

A) this is why your not allowed "to have a conversation" with wellens. He's a rugby player. He has been given a role in the team and he's performing it. I'm not sure where professional pride comes into it, are you saying he should of thrown a fit when he got demoted from the 1 shirt? Would that be showing more professional pride? I'd of thought it was more than professional to accept his changed role in the side, help lomax (something which lomax himself confirms) and do what he can for the cause.

B) those chances are being denied by others moving up the team just as much as wellens is. Do you reckon Forster is upset because Richards has been promoted into the 19? Is Richards upset because walmsley is doing his job? If they are, I'd suggest they Google Andy bracek and see what happened there. Brown makes the decisions (whether you refuse to accept that or not) and anyone in our team who can't accept that shouldn't be part of the team.

Saddened! wrote:

Although it's horrible to say because of what he achieved,

This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge anything good about wellens.

Saddened! wrote:

Wello would have retired two years ago if he had any pride in himself. The decline in performance was dramatic and should have been acknowledged. Him remaining on the playing staff this year is cringeworthy and I'm 100% sure he's uncomfortable with it as well.

Obviously the coaching staff disagree with you. As said, he's been given a new role in the team, and is, from all that can be gathered, fulfilling it, hence the continued selection. If you don't think that contribution is enough, I suggest you turn your attention to the people who outlined his role: brown.

Saddened! wrote:

A few on here justify it by saying he's the captain. His captaincy skills have been much discussed on here as well. We've not seen the big bird impressions or referee abusing this year as he's not been on the field until the opposition has given up and started crying yet. But he's no leader on the field that's for sure.

And yet anyone which half a brain can see he's respected by his team mates. Even if you mock me for it, I still believe he had a positive impact calming us down against Warrington, and waking us up against hull. Obviously that's not needed in every game. And hopefully throughout the season we will see Roby/ Wilkin/ another stand up and perform that role before he gets on the pitch.

Saddened! wrote:

If he's the wonderful influence off the field they say he is, make him a coach. Give him a tracksuit and send him on with the messages, kicking tee and water bottles. There is still a role for him at Saints, it just doesn't have to be pretending to be a Super League forward.

I'm glad you say there's still a place at saints for him. I think that's something that should be universally agreed. However, just putting him on water boy duty without phasing him out leaves us with the potential situation that Warrington have right now, with no leaders. Better safe than sorry - phase him out (and this is my hope).

I wouldn't disagree that other players could fulfil roles that would be more contributing to wins on the field, but that's brown - I'm sure if Wellens WAS pulling the selection strings he'd still have the 1 shirt. And, given how our season is 4/4 if it ain't broke...

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:08 am  

I've just logged in and had a quick look at 2 threads. Both have the same poster making a comment about Wellens. I wonder if he's hit the 10 mark if we take last nights into account?

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:15 am  

I'd rather not create a Wellens thread, as I feel it's, well I just don't think it would be right.

But sad one did not open the door on the thread wandering, he has just pryed it open a little wider.

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:27 am  

Wellens Wellens Wellens.

Give him a break.
The thread is about Mose

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:37 am  

I don,t think Saddened really understands the attributes of loyalty, pride and respect.

This is the last season in Wellens wearing a saints shirt you must respect the decision by McManus and Brown in what limited contribution Wellens has on the team. For me his limited appearances is one of a holding one to close the game down, Wellens is near enough error free and has a sound defence, yes he is no playmaker but he will offer composure in the team in that last quarter.

I don,t think you can question his pride he alreay met this head on when relinguishing his shirt to Lomax this year, one of Wellens attributes is his strength of character maybe people see this as stubborness, but he has 100% pride in wearing a saints shirt so why would he surrender it.

I would expect Wellens will lose his position in the starting 17 shortly as the team gets mentally tougher and more player options become avaible, I would suggest you show loyalty, reduce the over zealous criticism and support the Saints Shirt.

Re: Mose Masoe tonight : Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:00 am  

A slightly alternative view

At the start of the season I was firmly in the "he's past iy why did we even extend his contract" camp.

But i now believe i was wrong, he's done what i hoped, but didnt think was still possible. Against Hull, his influence helped turn us around and win the game. He's a stead influence just when we need it.

Things can change, but for now he's doing a good job.


Anywho, Mose!

Much, much hard work needed for him re fitness. but even given that in his short spell on the pitch he made 12 tackles and did only miss one, so not too terrible. I didnt like how when returning to the line, he turned his back on the ball , didnt jog backwards, thats one of the first lessons i ever got as a rugby player