Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:39 am  

St pete wrote:

The problem with the recruitment and my biggest gripe, is not replacing players with quality when players left. We've gone about 6/7 years without a out and out centre pairing which IMO is shocking!

We failed to try and replace the the likes of gidley, scully, graham, long etc who was massively important to us. I know we could never replace scully, longy and KC with equal or better players but we should have gone for the best we could.

Gidley: replaced with the current first choice GB #3
Scully: irreplaceable, but still replaced by a GB SR/#13
Graham: replaced with an Aussie international prop.
Long: replaced with the best and most exciting young #7 talent in the country.

etc., etc., et-****ing-cetra...

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:45 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Gidley: replaced with the current first choice GB #3
Scully: irreplaceable, but still replaced by a GB SR/#13
Graham: replaced with an Aussie international prop.
Long: replaced with the best and most exciting young #7 talent in the country.

etc., etc., et-****ing-cetra...

We replaced Graham with a second row and who did we replace Scully with?

You seem to forget at a whim we didnt bother replacing Talau , If we hadn't bothered replacing Gidley we;d have gone from 1 centre to bloody none so we had to do that. Long , well we did have a replacement , in fact we grew several but we f****d up with all of them to some degree or another.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:09 am  

Having coaches who only took the position because nothing else was available in their own country doesn't help.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:55 am  

No1 Saint wrote:

We replaced Graham with a second row and who did we replace Scully with?

Guy by the name of Wilkin? You know: GB player?

Failing him, who do you think we should have signed to replace Sculthorpe with exactly instead? He is irreplaceable on a 1-for-1 basis. Many top-priced quality players have come into the team to play #11, #12, #6 or #13 instead since his departure as well besides Wilkin. Do these not count as "replacements" do you think?

No1 Saint wrote:

You seem to forget at a whim we didnt bother replacing Talau , If we hadn't bothered replacing Gidley we;d have gone from 1 centre to bloody none so we had to do that.

Talau was past it and we had a quality proven centre replacement in the squad already in Gilmour - I don't know whether you've noticed but top centres don't exactly grow on trees 'round these parts these days. Most top SL teams have had to rely on SRs to fill in at #3 or #4 over the last 5 years or so and we were in a darn sight better position than they've been by having Gilmour to call on. Have Leeds and Wigan shown a lack of "ambition" and a desire to simply cut costs at all costs by having relied on SRs playing centre in their GF wins do you think?

And again - who do you think we should have signed at the time instead to play #4 who was available and better than Gilmour? Hmmmm?

No1 Saint wrote:

Long , well we did have a replacement , in fact we grew several but we f****d up with all of them to some degree or another.

The argument isn't did we sign the right players to replace those that left every time, or that contracts have been handled as well as they could have been... Eastmond was a **** up and noone would deny otherwise. Hohaia is a disaster in the position we signed him for. LeFrank is not the dominating presence up front Jammer was. The argument that some numpties are making though is that the board has shown a complete lack of "ambition", only been interested in saving money and has not even tried to attempt to replace any players that have left - this is a patent and utter demonstrable nonsense. At every stage we have signed (in the board's opinion) the best possible available replacement for everyone that has left and on top dollar. Eastmond, LeFrank and Hohaia were all signed on top dollar, just as much as the players they were replacing were on. We have not signed cheap makeweights and relied on unprepared youth teamers to fill all the holes as the lunatic fringe are suggesting.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:36 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Guy by the name of Wilkin? You know: GB player?

Failing him, who do you think we should have signed to replace Sculthorpe with exactly instead? He is irreplaceable on a 1-for-1 basis. Many top-priced quality players have come into the team to play #11, #12, #6 or #13 instead since his departure as well besides Wilkin. Do these not count as "replacements" do you think?

Talau was past it and we had a quality proven centre replacement in the squad already in Gilmour - I don't know whether you've noticed but top centres don't exactly grow on trees 'round these parts these days. Most top SL teams have had to rely on SRs to fill in at #3 or #4 over the last 5 years or so and we were in a darn sight better position than they've been by having Gilmour to call on. Have Leeds and Wigan shown a lack of "ambition" and a desire to simply cut costs at all costs by having relied on SRs playing centre in their GF wins do you think?

And again - who do you think we should have signed at the time instead to play #4 who was available and better than Gilmour? Hmmmm?

The argument isn't did we sign the right players to replace those that left every time, or that contracts have been handled as well as they could have been... Eastmond was a **** up and noone would deny otherwise. Hohaia is a disaster in the position we signed him for. LeFrank is not the dominating presence up front Jammer was. The argument that some numpties are making though is that the board has shown a complete lack of "ambition", only been interested in saving money and has not even tried to attempt to replace any players that have left - this is a patent and utter demonstrable nonsense. At every stage we have signed (in the board's opinion) the best possible available replacement for everyone that has left and on top dollar. Eastmond, LeFrank and Hohaia were all signed on top dollar, just as much as the players they were replacing were on. We have not signed cheap makeweights and relied on unprepared youth teamers to fill all the holes as the lunatic fringe are suggesting.

I disagree. Talau could and should have been replaced. Moving Gilly out to centre made the pack lighter and reduced our threat out wide and contributed to the slow down in the backs.

There were plenty of centres who we could have opted for from the UK or the NRL. Back when Talau left there was not the same gulf in wages that there is now. In fact we may have been ahead at that point. Who could we have signed, well that so far back now, I'd be hard pushed to find who was exactly off contract at that point.

But I like a challenge so how about this one Matt King.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:55 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

I disagree. Talau could and should have been replaced. Moving Gilly out to centre made the pack lighter and reduced our threat out wide and contributed to the slow down in the backs.

There were plenty of centres who we could have opted for from the UK or the NRL. Back when Talau left there was not the same gulf in wages that there is now. In fact we may have been ahead at that point. Who could we have signed, well that so far back now, I'd be hard pushed to find who was exactly off contract at that point.

But I like a challenge so how about this one Matt King.

Spot on. Call it cost cutting or call it poor squad management the fact was we let our only left centre go and then wedged a second row in there. (read John Monie's book)

Also you can hardly say Wilkin was a replacement for Scully as he was already at the club and had been for some time. Saints have had a downward spiral squad wise for a number of years , its worse for us because we were so damned good. We have excuses now , Union is richer, NRL is richer, the pound is weaker but we didnt a few years back

The same scenario is playing out at Wigan now but there thick fans are too stupid to see it. Although much better than our 6 & 7 they have replaced Finch and Lulu with inferior players (who they paid fee's for !), Mossop and Hock are off and being replaced with an old welsh bloke. Tomkins will be next and despite all the crap spouted by Rogues and others they have no replacement , whoever they put at 1 will be a massive downgrade although I'm sure Pollard will sugar coat it, hold a big press conference and tell everyone it's not really a bad thing for Wigan or English RL in general and that he'll be back when he's ready for the knackers yard.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:01 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

But I like a challenge so how about this one Matt King.

Our survey says... "Ek, errrrkkkkk!!!" Oh, bad luck....

King signed for Wire a year before Talau left (and when Willie was still committed under another 12 months' contract) and so couldn't have happened without a huge transfer fee/payoff (which we can't pay) to someone at some point. And King would have been on substantially more dosh than Willie ever was which would have meant either something else in the squad needed to give or we needed to find Wire's sugar daddy and "creative" accountancy. Nice try though

FWIW I remember being more than a little concerned at the non-arrival of a direct replacement for Willie at the time, but I also remember not being able to think of any suitable replacements available on the market at the time either. The player pool in SL is small and shrinking daily and it's inevitable that teams that can't pay big transfer fees will have to go the odd season with fill-ins while waiting for suitable replacements for various positions to show up as free agents every now and then, as we did then until Sia became available, or as we are now having to with a #7.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:09 pm  

No1 Saint wrote:

they have replaced Finch and Lulu with inferior players (who they paid fee's for !)

Because there are no replacements on the market any better!!!! Here we go with that stupid, clueless argument again... "Saints have ****ed up and are on the decline because we used to have Long and Scully, now we have Wilkin and Hohaia... Wigan have ****ed up and are on the decline because they used to have Lulu and Finch, now they have Green and Smith"... FFS!!! The talent pool in our game is shrinking at an alarming rate... The Longs and Sculthorpes of old are no longer available to any of us... The Lulus and Finches are no longer available even. Clubs have to sign the best available replacements for those players when they go, and those best available players are unfortunately Greens and Hohaias now.... That isn't a sign of decline in those clubs - it is a sign of the decline in our entire game...

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:42 pm  

Fair enough with the Talau - King. Like I said a long time ago and I was at work so doing a bit of guess work.

But with the full internet to my disposal.

Ryan atkins was available a year later who we passed on.
Chev Walker the same..
There were several make shift centre's after 2008.

I can't remember them all but not to replace Talau until (2013) is pretty poor. I've put 2013 in brackets as I've been impressed with Percival, but it's a bit early to jump to conclusions yet.

Re: Where did it all go wrong and how long ago? : Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:56 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Fair enough with the Talau - King. Like I said a long time ago and I was at work so doing a bit of guess work.

But with the full internet to my disposal.

Ryan atkins was available a year later who we passed on.
Chev Walker the same..
There were several make shift centre's after 2008.

I can't remember them all but not to replace Talau until (2013) is pretty poor. I've put 2013 in brackets as I've been impressed with Percival, but it's a bit early to jump to conclusions yet.

A fee was paid for Atkins so that ruled us out of the reckoning. Walker isn't what you'd really call "Saints quality" - I'd rather have had Gilmour any day. And it's also supreme arrogance to assume that we should be signing any and every quality player that ever comes onto the market anyway. Every other top SL club is rabidly after any half-way decent centre that ever becomes available due to the appallingly limited selection of same - what divine right do we have to expect to beat everyone else to them every time? We won a fevered bidding war for Shenton - we can't win all of them...