Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:02 am  

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:05 am  

fun time frankie wrote:

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

It would be an option and probably not a bad one. Howarth and Wello are just so bad there it's making us a laughing stock

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:18 am  

cod'ead wrote:

McManus isn't the one who's changed your team's ethos, he only appointed the man responsible for that. Nathan Brown has tried to change the philosophy that has been running through your club for decades. From concentrating on playing open and expansive football, you now seem more interested in slowing down the PtB by wrestling and targeting opposition playmakers with cheap shots. It's never been Saints way of playing and as a neutral, it doesn't make pretty viewing.

In my (far from humble) opinion, it is the change in your style of play, rather then missing halfbacks, that is mainly responsible for your current shortcomings

Agree with this. As a Hull fan who wears any team's coloured spectacles if they're playing Rovers it was obvious even to blinkered me that Saints came out to play wrestling dirty rugby. You were lucky to only lose Meli in that first half.

That's not St Helens, but sadly it does appear to be Brown's way. I like your club a lot and have massive respect for you as do most RL fans. People don't like Leeds much. Or Wigan. Or Wire. But no-one seems to hate Saints. That's because you've always been seen go do things fairly both as a club and on the field. This season's style is an anathema to you and therefore isn't working.

(Oh, and Brown isn't using Manu right, either. Which is why you're not seeing him at his best when he's played.)

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:22 am  

I think a lot of the problems we currently have at Saints are the result of sheer bad luck.

Perry has been a shadow of the player he was in the NRL, that's when he's been able to take to the field. Hohaia was a bit of a gamble, which has very much not paid off - but at the time we'd just had Lomax & Gaskell emerging as a very promising halfback pairing. I remember Lafranchi having a very decent first season. He was making the transition from 2nd row to prop (like so many players who've become top-class props) and looked like he'd kick on in his second season. But he's gone backwards.

Each of these have been marquee players for us, had no question marks about their quality at the time of signing, and to have all three fail has been rank misfortune.

So has the stunted development of Lomax, Gaskell & Wheeler as halfbacks - each for entirely different reasons. You can't legislate for that; after 2011, most fans & pundits believed Lomax & Gaskell complimented each other well and were the future halfback pairing for the club.

On the coaching side, Potter came here with good credentials. He'd coached a fairly entertaining Catalans and looked a good appointment. But he wasn't up to the job and instilled an overly cautious approach to our play. But even this wasn't entirely his fault. Rule changes (or, at least, changes to the interpretations of the rules) to allow a slowing of the ptb, wrestling the tackled player on the floor and shorter defensive lines, meant that Saints' style of play (with quick ptb's taking advantage of a disorganised defence) was diminished. But his tenure started the rot.

Saying all that, there have been failings. Some individual players appear to have been handled poorly by both coaching staff and management. We've been unfocused in terms of player recruitment, at times buying a player because they're available, then seeing how to fit them into the team. The standard of player we've brought in to replace departing players has often been lower. With hindsight, 2012 was wasted in terms of player development, as Rush tried to achieve as much for the club as possible, but sacrificed the progression of youngsters in the process.

But Brown isn't blameless this season. We all too often look clueless in attack, and we must employ the tactic of dummy runners the least out of all SL clubs (this going back to Potter's time). The team too often looks unbalanced, and there's too much chopping & changes. I know injuries have caused a lot of this, but the selection policies have been baffling at times, and it's like a 'hit & hope' approach without a longer term plan.

In summary, the reason we sit where we do is a combination of bad luck, some poor coaching appointments, and unfocused player recruitment.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:51 am  

fun time frankie wrote:

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

Because he's doing a good job at centre. It would also mean having to play jones in the centres when he should be playing second row.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:28 am  

By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

The fans are going to have to be patient and understand that we are severly lacking in the major pivot positions either due to injury or bad recruitment. I am seriously hoping we will be implementing a firesale in pre-season.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:51 am  

Carlos Alberto wrote:

By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

I blame Brown for causing unnecessary disruption to the team at the weekend by playing Howarth and Wello as our halfback combination, which is probably one reason why we were so naff in the first half - we hadn't a clue who was supposed to be doing what. It was totally dumb to mess up our pivots for a knock out game.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:56 am  

Carlos Alberto wrote:

By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

The fans are going to have to be patient and understand that we are severly lacking in the major pivot positions either due to injury or bad recruitment. I am seriously hoping we will be implementing a firesale in pre-season.

It would be okay for the fans if the club was making an effort to improve things. But it isn't, there is no effort or will to improve things.

Greg Eden tore us to pieces yesterday and was ultimately the difference between the sides. He moved to Hull KR for nothing. The club ignored his availability despite our coach saying he could be as good as Billy Slater. Every other club in Super League has at least two established half backs, we have none and we haven't tried to sign any either. Rangi Chase is available now and we're not doing anything. Michael Dobson is also probably available as Hull KR are in a mess financially and again, we've not even attempted anything. Why did Perry, Hohaia and Laffranchi start this season still at Saints? Why weren't they released?

In modern sport no team has 3 or 4 years to build and improve. It no longer works like that. Sport is a short term, results driven business. If the team isn't competitive the fans won't watch them in as great a number. There is a serious risk that we won't even make the play offs this year, that's how far we've dropped. The likes of Hull KR, Hull and Bradford are now arguably better teams than we are and the likes of Huddersfield, Catalans have already passed us. I posted on another thread the stats about our crowd figures. We are probably £1/2m down in terms of revenue by now due to the drop in crowds and next year is going to continue that trend if the club doesn't get back to having a team that is competing for trophies. I've been going to Saints for 25 years and this year is the first time I'm seriously debating not renewing my season ticket and I know plenty of people in that position too. The stadium is half finished and a souless place to watch sport, the team is a bunch of average players going through the motions and the entertainment value given to the fans is appalling. I really don't see how anyone can claim to enjoy watching Saints at the moment, it's more of a chore than a pleasure these days.

McManus just needs to stop being so lazy with his recruitment decisions. He's making easy choices, signing players that are okay, that will fill the gap. There is no desire or commitment to improve anything. It's time for the club to find the money and invest in the players to get us back into contention. Transfer fees are such a taboo word around the club, but it's the time now where they either have to do it or leave. There is nothing to be gained from going through the motions like we are now. We'll miss out on the commercial potential of the stadium and will still be massively loss making. Spending some money now and getting us back to being a vibrant, exciting team and having 15,000+ crowds is essential.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:07 pm  

Th'ump wrote:

I think a lot of the problems we currently have at Saints are the result of sheer bad luck.

Perry has been a shadow of the player he was in the NRL, that's when he's been able to take to the field. Hohaia was a bit of a gamble, which has very much not paid off - but at the time we'd just had Lomax & Gaskell emerging as a very promising halfback pairing. I remember Lafranchi having a very decent first season. He was making the transition from 2nd row to prop (like so many players who've become top-class props) and looked like he'd kick on in his second season. But he's gone backwards.

Each of these have been marquee players for us, had no question marks about their quality at the time of signing, and to have all three fail has been rank misfortune.

So has the stunted development of Lomax, Gaskell & Wheeler as halfbacks - each for entirely different reasons. You can't legislate for that; after 2011, most fans & pundits believed Lomax & Gaskell complimented each other well and were the future halfback pairing for the club.

On the coaching side, Potter came here with good credentials. He'd coached a fairly entertaining Catalans and looked a good appointment. But he wasn't up to the job and instilled an overly cautious approach to our play. But even this wasn't entirely his fault. Rule changes (or, at least, changes to the interpretations of the rules) to allow a slowing of the ptb, wrestling the tackled player on the floor and shorter defensive lines, meant that Saints' style of play (with quick ptb's taking advantage of a disorganised defence) was diminished. But his tenure started the rot.

Saying all that, there have been failings. Some individual players appear to have been handled poorly by both coaching staff and management. We've been unfocused in terms of player recruitment, at times buying a player because they're available, then seeing how to fit them into the team. The standard of player we've brought in to replace departing players has often been lower. With hindsight, 2012 was wasted in terms of player development, as Rush tried to achieve as much for the club as possible, but sacrificed the progression of youngsters in the process.

But Brown isn't blameless this season. We all too often look clueless in attack, and we must employ the tactic of dummy runners the least out of all SL clubs (this going back to Potter's time). The team too often looks unbalanced, and there's too much chopping & changes. I know injuries have caused a lot of this, but the selection policies have been baffling at times, and it's like a 'hit & hope' approach without a longer term plan.

In summary, the reason we sit where we do is a combination of bad luck, some poor coaching appointments, and unfocused player recruitment.

Very good post. I agree. There has undoubtedly been misfortune and unforseeable events. However, as you so rightly say, this isn't a sufficient excuse for the directionless play and the often baffling selection options. There are still some very good players at the club, who would walk into most SL sides as automatic selections. That we're in danger of slipping out of the top 8 is a fairly damning indictment of Brown's inability to get the best out of what he has, just as much as it is a consequence of bad luck and poor recruitment.

Re: Is It Really Brown's Fault? : Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:04 pm  

fun time frankie wrote:

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

Jordan Turner IMO is a winger. He's got the makings of being a good centre but he needs a rocket up his bum. He's got no desire or motivation. He just goes thru the motions.

I'd honestly be looking for a centre and Turner being a winger.