Re: What we are lacking ... : Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:02 pm  

roader wrote:

I think Swift is a long way off as he is splitting his time between Saints and working for an aviation company as an apprentice.

I'm of the opinion that while swift has the talent to be a good pro, he will possibly make the decision to complete his apprenticeship, then play RL on a part time basis in the championship.
The money he will be able to earn as an aviation engineer will be on a par with that of most full time RL players, but with the advantage of having a career that lasts more than a decade.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:34 pm  

Given the extraordinarily limited pool of talent swimming about SL it doesn't take wholesale changes to turn an average team into a good one. One or two excellent signings can be the difference between winning SL and going out in the first round.

Consequently I think the perceived wisdom of making a big deal out of championship-winning academy sides is faulty. Saints fans should know this better than anyone. It wasn't all that long ago that we were assured all kinds of riches on the backs of prophesised mind-boggling talent such as Tyrer, Foster, Eastmond, Gaskell, Wheeler, Lomax, Frodsham etc. As things stand currently not one of those players has achieved a fraction of the kinds of promises McManus and company provided. Not one. Indeed, many have either left the club or are still in the wilderness. Granted, we all bought into the hype and thus must share some of the blame. But the fact remains that having a highly-placed academy set-up (in terms of league position) in no way guarantees first team success.

The achievements of kids around the age of 18 are no substitute for achievements aged 28 and there are all manner of pitfalls inbetween. A club could win the academy championship three years running and not produce a single genuine SL star whilst another with no academy pedigree could produce two late-developing teenagers who suddenly flesh out to become the next Keiron Cunningham and Sean Long - a platform for a decade of success.

IMO, too much significance is attached to possessing a so-called "great" academy when it's INDIVIDUALS who count. One genuinely talented young english halfback coming out of a modestly successful academy is worth a dozen academy grand final winners. I mean, look at Wigan - a team which is universally praised for its junior development program. If perceived wisdom held any truth Wigan should be miles ahead of just about everyone insofar as SL success is concerned.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:39 pm  

If it is of any consolation St Helens are one of the three/two biggest and best club teams in world rugby. Teams like Wire/Bradford will come and go but saints will always be there. And this is from someone who was routing for a wire win!

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:55 pm  

What are we lacking? A coach and a half. Preferably both, but either would do. Discussion over, thread closed. Thank you all for attending.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:10 am  

The Chair Maker wrote:

I dont think halves is that big a problem. I think its selecting the right player in the right position
For example Wheeler and Gaskell are both naturally gifted half backs, but Saints have insisted on playing Hohoia and Lomax in the halves when arguably both would be better utilised as fullbacks. (obviously not both at the same time)

Wello has been a revelation this year, but we need to be looking to move Lomax into that position or possibly Swift.

Hohoia would for me be a utility bench player.

Pack is fine, it is big tough and mobile. Next year should be even better with Manu causing havoc out wide

Threequarters. Meli has been our best back and Makinson is looking like developing into a solid pro. Gardner was strong before his injury, but you have to ask if its getting to the stage were both Meli and Gardner need putting out to pasture to let the young guns get their chance. Foster certainly needs bringing back from the wilderness as he is a points machine who showed at Hull that he is no flash in the pan.
Im hopeful Jordan Turner will add some pace and power into the centres next year. Alongside a further year of development for Josh Jones.

The main thing though is getting a top class coach to mold what is a group of very talented players into a trophy winning team. Brown for me is capable of that, however i am sceptical he will ever coach a St.Helens team due to his talents being in great demand down under.

What we also have to do is look at the opposition and what the next couple of years look like yielding for them.

Wigan look like a rapidly fading force. Players are leaving on mass, to be replaced by journeymen pros. For me this year was their last great chance to get some decent silver before spending a few years trying to rebuild. Like Saints have the junior talent to remain a top 5 team though.

Wire will be up there for a year or two until their pensioners all start to retire, then they could hit the buffers bigtime. Simon Moran will then need to start splashing the cash, something they are well capable of doing however.

Leeds. Still a big game team, and the nucleus of the side Sinfield, Burrows & Mcguire still have a few years left in them. Will always challenge as they are the only real genuine contender from Yorkshire, so know that if they are short in a position they just have to pick off talent from any of their weak west Yorkshire rivals.

Hull looking to make a push next season with some big signings. Suffer though from being in Hull, which makes recruitment harder due to the isolated nature of their city.

The rest are easy beats.

Hard to disagree with much of this. I think Foster still has a bit of a way to go to be a Saints player again and Meli needs to be a key player still though.

Our major issue is of course the halves, and we may look lacking if you just compare Lomax's and Hohaia's headless rabbit in headlights bouncing off the line to what Briers did tonight, or to what Sinfield and Maguire will probably do next week, but frankly compared to what most of the rest of the league has to call on we're looking pretty good at #6 and #7 frankly. Those players aren't going to be around forever, and in a league where Smith and Myler are probably the 2 best young halves around then give us a year or 2's decent coaching of Wheeler, Gaskell and Lomax and we'll be a side that's going to win lots of silverware. Our next coach is key.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:37 am  

morrisseyisawire wrote:

That would be the wire team whose youngsters have won the Valvoline Grand Final today?

Can you please stop bringing facts into this topic, it really upsets the locals.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:44 am  

I honestly think with Brown coaching, a halfback and a good prop we would be a real threat. It's not massive changes needed.

Obviously we could do with other players in certain postions but IMO a good creative halfback, a good hard tough prop along with good coaching is all that's needed.

We can't continue to try and grind out wins every week, we need some class and flair in the big games like last night.

Re: What we are lacking ... : Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:21 pm  

Fatbelly wrote:

Can you please stop bringing facts into this topic, it really upsets the locals.

Do it again next year and we can start talking!!!

Re: What we are lacking ... : Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:27 am  

The Chief wrote:

Until we get a 6 that can play, Lomax will always be behind the 8 ball as he has all season.

Agree completely. Contrary to what many on here say, I think Lomax very much has the ability to be a modern scrum half. He's never going to be the next Andy Gregory, but he brings a hell of a lot of other attributes and can be hugely effective. The problem is, he's predominantly a running halfback, so we need to play a ball-playing, creative No6 next to him with experience to bring him through. Playing Hohaia - another running halfback - next to him is going to nullify the chance of any creativity from the halves.

When we signed Long, he was also predominantly a running half (albeit with different skills & a different style to Lomax). He had TommyGod outside him, who did have the creative, ball-playing ability and was very experienced. That took the ball-handling pressure off Long, who was able to play more his natural game. Obviously, as Long matured and gained more experience, his creative abilities grew. By the time Tommy hung up his heavenly boots, Long was able to assume the main creative mantle.

I personally don't think Gaskell is the right player to be outside of Lomax. Yes, he has the attributes to be a creative, ball-playing half. But he lacks the experience (and possibly personality/arrogance/ego) to take control of a game. I think for Gaskell to develop into the player he has the potential to be, he needs to play alongside an experienced scrum half who can nurture him for a couple of seasons.

The obvious conclusion is that we need an experienced, top quality halfback. The question is, would it be better to sign a creative stand off to help bring Lomax through? Or a scrum half to help bring Gaskell on?

The one thing we do know is that Lomax & Hohaia together doesn't work.

The ideal solution would be to rip up the Hohaia option and start again. But I don't see any NRL clubs clamouring to snap him up, even if he was wanting to return DU.

I've said previously that it's perhaps worth a try playing Hohaia at 7 and Gaskell at 6. That would certainly be more balanced. But is Hohaia the type of generous player who will help nurture a younger player? I've seen no evidence of it. In fact, Hohaia looks too absorbed trying to get his own game right to have time for anything else. That, presumably, is the problem of signing a player to play 6 who's played most of his career at 1.

It's a reet mess. And that's just the halves!

Re: What we are lacking ... : Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:23 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

One swallow does not a summer make.

How are the other wire junior sides doing?
Its not good enough to have one good season. Wakefield had that the other year when they won the comp, but it didnt translate into a team of superstar juniors coming through

You need to continuously develop youngsters year after year to a high standard. Something Saints and Wigan have been doing for a long time.

By doing this you may start to see decent quality youngsters come through from within the club.

Thanks for the advice.

With no youth system we have won 3 Challenge Cups in the past four years and are in the Grand Final.

When we start producing our own youngsters how many trophies are we going to win then...?