Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:10 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

Sorry, what is Royce doing this Sunday? I can't quite remember.

That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with his coaching. Purtill went too. McManus has fired a coach before. Was he poor too? He was very successful.

You still haven't addressed my point though. Wilkin was superb last season. Last season Saints were coached by Royce. Royce also coached Saints for the first seven rounds this season. So therefore the problem with Wilkin's performance cannot be the coach.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:18 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with his coaching. Purtill went too. McManus has fired a coach before. Was he poor too? He was very successful.

You still haven't addressed my point though. Wilkin was superb last season. Last season Saints were coached by Royce. Royce also coached Saints for the first seven rounds this season. So therefore the problem with Wilkin's performance cannot be the coach.

So there's no chance Royce asked Wilkin to play a slightly different role this season and allow our slightly more experienced half backs to show what they could do? If he's playing a typical back row role, staistically, he's doing it better than Sean O'Loughlin. What do you think about that?

Purtill was an assistant coach. He probably did his job very well but I've absolutely no idea on that. No matter how well he did his job, he didn't pick the team or tell the players how to play, so just as with your Lance Hohaia statistic, it has absolutely no relevance to Jon Wilkin.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:23 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

So there's no chance Royce asked Wilkin to play a slightly different role this season and allow our slightly more experienced half backs to show what they could do?

Sure there's a chance. Just as there's a chance Royce told Wilkin to play standing on his head.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:27 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

You still haven't addressed my point though. Wilkin was superb last season. Last season Saints were coached by Royce. Royce also coached Saints for the first seven rounds this season. So therefore the problem with Wilkin's performance cannot be the coach.

Maybe his performaces have declined as all the good influence left over from Mick Potter have gradually worn off?

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:38 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Sure there's a chance. Just as there's a chance Royce told Wilkin to play standing on his head.

Deary me. Is this because your "completely anonymous" argument has been shot to pieces? Or that you're still in cloud cuckoo land that one good game in the halves against Leeds 5 years ago makes him the next Wally Lewis?

All joking aside, you say that Wilkin is capable of a good showing in the halves due to a great game he played away at Leeds. Lomax produced a masterclass at scrum half at Leeds last season, yet isn't a scrum half in the memory of man.

What's the difference?

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:47 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

Deary me. Is this because your "completely anonymous" argument has been shot to pieces? Or that you're still in cloud cuckoo land that one good game in the halves against Leeds 5 years ago makes him the next Wally Lewis?

Unfortunately, simply saying someone's argument is "shot to pieces" doesn't make it true. And no-one has ever compared Wilkin to Wally Lewis so we can put that straw man to rest, too.

All joking aside, you say that Wilkin is capable of a good showing in the halves due to a great game he played away at Leeds. Lomax produced a masterclass at scrum half at Leeds last season, yet isn't a scrum half in the memory of man.

I didn't say Wilkin's performance against Leeds alone makes him a half. I said Wilkin has - at many times during his career - functioned as an effective tactical option (in support of the likes of Scully, Long, Martyn etc.).

What's the difference?

Since you chose to substitute your words for my argument and then argue against them claiming success - you tell me?

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:16 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Unfortunately, simply saying someone's argument is "shot to pieces" doesn't make it true. And no-one has ever compared Wilkin to Wally Lewis so we can put that straw man to rest, too.

I'd have thought a man of your intellingence would have noticed that I put a after the Lewis comment. In your very first post on this matter you said Wilkin had been completely anonymous this season. He hasn't been. Nowhere near in fact. He's been poorer in attack granted but as I've already said, show me a player in the current Saints line up other than Roby and Sia who are performing to their ability. To pick up on Wilkin who has been nowhere near our worst performer surprises me.

I'm also surprised that you went from "completely anonymous" in one post to "No one disputes whether Wilkin is putting the work in" in another. It confused me.

Now that I realise your major gripe is that Wilkin isn't taking enough pressure off the halves, I can agree in part. The fact that you in no way, shape or form agree that Royce's coaching could have come into is what I don't agree with and I certainly don't think Wilkin has stopped moving into the halves or producing certain runs because he is thinking about his testimonial. If he was prioritising his testimonial, I'd imagine his whole game would suffer, not just part of it.

Mugwump wrote:

I didn't say Wilkin's performance against Leeds alone makes him a half. I said Wilkin has - at many times during his career - functioned as an effective tactical option (in support of the likes of Scully, Long, Martyn etc.).

I agree. Again, you're taking a tongue in cheek comment the wrong way.

Mugwump wrote:

Since you chose to substitute your words for my argument and then argue against them claiming success - you tell me?

Mugwump wrote:

Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities?

Mugwump wrote:

This season - completely anonymous

Mugwump wrote:

I know players sometimes lose a touch of focus during a testimonial year but with most of our youngsters mentally shot the last thing we need is for our experienced, highly-paid veterans to go AWOL

Mugwump wrote:

No one disputes whether Wilkin is putting the work in

Your words. It just took me a while to understand what you were actually saying.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:40 pm  

I'm not sure why a back rower is carrying the can for us looking awful in the halves, just because he has filled in there in the past.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:11 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

I'm not sure why a back rower is carrying the can for us looking awful in the halves, just because he has filled in there in the past.

He isn't taking it for that reason though, as I think you know. The suggestion is that because he has the experience there, is a talker anyway, and is one of Saints' longest serving senior players he should have been taking on the role of leader. It's not like he is a shy retiring type is it? And when he has played well in the halves, he has known how to lead the team around.

Re: Where are Jon Wilkin's priorities? : Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:18 pm  

Sthelens RLFC wrote:

I'm also surprised that you went from "completely anonymous" in one post to "No one disputes whether Wilkin is putting the work in" in another. It confused me.

Message board posts don't exist in a vacuum. They are set against a contextual backdrop of former contributions. Since I have publicly - to the point of weariness - defended Wilkin's workrate (and, prior to this season, entire game) for the best part of six years I didn't think it necessary to re-state what is a matter of fact.

Now that I realise your major gripe is that Wilkin isn't taking enough pressure off the halves, I can agree in part. The fact that you in no way, shape or form agree that Royce's coaching could have come into is what I don't agree with and I certainly don't think Wilkin has stopped moving into the halves or producing certain runs because he is thinking about his testimonial. If he was prioritising his testimonial, I'd imagine his whole game would suffer, not just part of it.

At NO point did I say it is impossible Royce was, in some way, to blame. The problem is I've no evidence to support that fact - other than Wilkin's performance - which isn't evidence.