Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:19 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Much better news at Wigan.

Accounts for the last financial year (ending Nov 2010 - i.e. the 2010 season) has recently been filed by the club with Companies House.

Main highlights:

- Operating profit of £141k against an operating loss of £459k from 2009

- Turnover up 15% to £5.5m against £4.8m the previous year

- Stadium rental costs of £197k against £190k the previous year. Notes to the accounts confirm that "rates determined by match revenues" and we have a "25 year renewable lease"

- The £2m loan that was assumed to be owed to Whelan was paid on 3 December.

- Net debt position reduced from £1.63m to £1.29m

Overall some very encouraging results and will probably only get better this year.

Well done indeed Rougues. Quite how the club managed to increase revenues by 14% but actually reduce overall costs but increasing salaries is quite a feat, however some of it is down to transfer fees being over £225,000 less than in 2009

What you don't say is:

Club is still insolvent to the tune of £2.69M in spite of the £572,000 benefit of a 2010 property revaluation.

There is no clue how the £2M loan was repaid e.g. another loan from the parent co LENAGAN INVESTMENTS LIMITED or Barclays bank loan. In other words what is likely in the absence of a share issue is that one debt been replaced by another.

The parent company to which Wigan owed £1.08M is a non trading insolvent company supported by its shareholders (Simon and Ann Lenagan).

Large liabilities for deferred income and accrued expenses amount to over £1.5M well up from previous years.

The club is still under investigation by the Inland Revenue (HMRC) for PAYE/NI issues arising out of payments including expenses to employees. No agreement has been reached with HMRC.
(Hypothetically, if at some stage HMRC sucessfully argue and rule that some expenses payments are in fact to be treated as salary then this may possibly have SC implications for the club and possibly other clubs (having said that, there is no such note about HMRC in Saints 2010 accounts) - of course no-one including myself is accusing Wigan or anyone connected to them of any sort of wrongdoing). This is also a big issue in RU

In the end, Wigan's accounts are not much better than those of Saints apart from the fact that for the first time in a very long time Wigan has made a small - but nonetheless positive - profit after tax of £38K.
Against that, we will own a new shiney stadium. I know which I'd rather have?

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:26 pm  

saint at wire wrote:

Well done indeed Rougues. Quite how the club managed to increase revenues by 14% but actually reduce overall costs but increasing salaries is quite a feat, however some of it is down to transfer fees being over £225,000 less than in 2009

What you don't say is:

Club is still insolvent to the tune of £2.69M in spite of the £572,000 benefit of a 2010 property revaluation.

There is no clue how the £2M loan was repaid e.g. another loan from the parent co LENAGAN INVESTMENTS LIMITED or Barclays bank loan. In other words what is likely in the absence of a share issue is that one debt been replaced by another.

The parent company to which Wigan owed £1.08M is a non trading insolvent company supported by its shareholders (Simon and Ann Lenagan).

Large liabilities for deferred income and accrued expenses amount to over £1.5M well up from previous years.

The club is still under investigation by the Inland Revenue (HMRC) for PAYE/NI issues arising out of payments including expenses to employees. No agreement has been reached with HMRC.
(Hypothetically, if at some stage HMRC sucessfully argue and rule that some expenses payments are in fact to be treated as salary then this may possibly have SC implications for the club and possibly other clubs (having said that, there is no such note about HMRC in Saints 2010 accounts) - of course no-one including myself is accusing Wigan or anyone connected to them of any sort of wrongdoing). This is also a big issue in RU

In the end, Wigan's accounts are not much better than those of Saints apart from the fact that for the first time in a very long time Wigan has made a small - but nonetheless positive - profit after tax of £38K.
Against that, we will own a new shiney stadium. I know which I'd rather have?

Awww youve gone and urinated all over the non trolls parade.
I like you

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:31 pm  

Don Brennan wrote:

Awww youve gone and urinated all over the non trolls parade.
I like you

I hope it's been posted on the pies board

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:35 pm  

saint at wire wrote:Well, its good to see that the Directors do not take any salary or other benefits.
However, 93 players and coaching staff does seem OTT to me as does 62 "other staff" for a business with a turnover of less than £5M.

Looking at wages, we have 34 tier one and two players and assuming that the SC is used to its full £1.65M thats an average of £48,250 p.a. which gives the remaining staff an average £15K p.a.
so it doesn't look like the club is overpaying people or "hangers on" it just looks like we have too many of rthe buggers!

McClennan wrote:

You have to be careful about speculating upon salaries and personnel ratios in businesses that are different to ones you've experienced. I've worked in ones where there's 300 employees for a £250m business and ones that have employed nearly 2,000 employees for a business that generated a fraction of that amount i.e. approx £14m. Without knowing the exact ins and outs we get into dangerous generalisations and speculation which serve no real purpose without genuine insight.

Hmmm that business with the c£14M turnover; even if all its income went to salaries they would average £7,000 p.a. which seems extremely low?

I do take on board some of what you say but there are some very strange stats when looking at some of our peers e.g.:

Number of employees - Saints 155 (Players and Coaching Staff - 93, Other Staff -62), Wigan - 78 (Players and Coaching Staff - 54, Other Staff - 24).
Why do we have nearly double the number of total staff and 72% more coaches and players to Wigan anyone?

Wigan Turnover £5.49M, Salaries £3.42M
Saints Turnover £4.83M, Salaries £3.81M

Don't get me wrong, in spite of wigan's small profit in 2010 their balance sheet is in similar shape to ours. The difference is that we will have a real revenue generating state of the art stadium next year!

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:24 pm  

Wigan and Warrington have acknowledged the HMRC investigation.

Have Saints?
If not why not?

They are in the frame (as indeed are most RL clubs)

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:28 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Wigan and Warrington have acknowledged the HMRC investigation.

Have Saints?
If not why not?

They are in the frame (as indeed are most RL clubs)

How do you know saints are in the frame? Proof?

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:31 pm  

St pete wrote:

How do you know saints are in the frame? Proof?

Can't and won't divulge my source, but there are a few on here who know what I'm on about.

You should know more than most that I don't post cr@p. This thing regarding HMRC and image rights could cost RL clubs big time and could kill some of them off.

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:37 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Can't and won't divulge my source, but there are a few on here who know what I'm on about.

You should know more than most that I don't post cr@p. This thing regarding HMRC and image rights could cost RL clubs big time and could kill some of them off.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:40 pm  

St pete wrote:

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it

I don't think you would.
Have I ever deceived you?

Re: Saints financial woes : Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:41 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Can't and won't divulge my source, but there are a few on here who know what I'm on about.

You should know more than most that I don't post cr@p. This thing regarding HMRC and image rights could cost RL clubs big time and could kill some of them off.

Can't be spouting such liabolous comments on here old timer. Doesn't even matter if it's the truth, Sadfish told me.

Ban hammer time...