Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:15 am  

St pete wrote:

Even if he bombs of a coach, he's still remembered as one of our greatest players so a statue is still going to be there.

It's to remember him as a great player, not a great coach

I don't deny the man was a great player, and champion for the club. All I'm saying is it wasn't a great idea to make him head coach. A number of your own fans don't think he's up to the job, for me if the board ever wish to remove him as coach would not the statue business not be a great embarrassment to the club. The killer instinct he had as a player is missing as a coach, too much a mister nice guy. More liked than feared by the players, and for me you've got to be both in his job now.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:54 pm  

pies-r-us wrote:

I don't deny the man was a great player, and champion for the club. All I'm saying is it wasn't a great idea to make him head coach. A number of your own fans don't think he's up to the job, for me if the board ever wish to remove him as coach would not the statue business not be a great embarrassment to the club. The killer instinct he had as a player is missing as a coach, too much a mister nice guy. More liked than feared by the players, and for me you've got to be both in his job now.

So why would we want to cover his statue up ?

I loved KC as a player and one of my all time saints players but I didn't want him getting the job YET. If he fails I'm pretty sure no fans will want his statue ripping down

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:00 pm  

pies-r-us wrote:

I don't deny the man was a great player, and champion for the club. All I'm saying is it wasn't a great idea to make him head coach. A number of your own fans don't think he's up to the job, for me if the board ever wish to remove him as coach would not the statue business not be a great embarrassment to the club. The killer instinct he had as a player is missing as a coach, too much a mister nice guy. More liked than feared by the players, and for me you've got to be both in his job now.

Its just come 1 or 2 seasons too early for him, he's not had the chance to be drip fed into a coaching role, he did one year in conditioning another year as assistant and then given the head coach role. Its took Wane about 8 years, Betts about 5 years and Powell about 12 years to get where they are now.
Radford (Hull) and Anderson (Huddersfield) are probably similar to Cunningham, you don't need a killer instinct to be a coach, he still believes in his own convictions and post match comments although baffling at times is something he will have to address in time.
Biggest problem for McManus is how to get Cunningham on a steeper learning curve with outside help without undermining his authority as coach, the other problem for McManus is that there isn't any available suitable proven coach inside and outside super league and that includes Powell who struggles for plan B when he has a couple of pivotable players out.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:10 pm  

St pete wrote:

So why would we want to cover his statue up ?

I loved KC as a player and one of my all time saints players but I didn't want him getting the job YET. If he fails I'm pretty sure no fans will want his statue ripping down

Don't take every comment so literally, I don't say the club should do anything with the statue. My point is if the board was to get shut of KC then the statue becomes an embarrassment. They make him an idol with a statue, and then say your not good enough to be head coach. For me he's not a good coach, but keep him there I don't care! It's only an opinion. And as for the statue, it's a fitting tribute for any great player, I just feel it would have been better left to a later time when he had not got such a senior place at the club. In short the club could have a statue of a man they have either sacked, or demoted. Making the chap a fallen idol!

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:10 pm  

pies-r-us wrote:

My point is if the board was to get shut of KC then the statue becomes an embarrassment. They make him an idol with a statue, and then say your not good enough to be head coach. For me he's not a good coach, but keep him there I don't care! It's only an opinion. And as for the statue, it's a fitting tribute for any great player, I just feel it would have been better left to a later time when he had not got such a senior place at the club. In short the club could have a statue of a man they have either sacked, or demoted. Making the chap a fallen idol!

If KC becomes a complete flop as a coach the statue wouldn't become an embarrassment at all, he would always be remembered as one of our great Legends in the game as a Player., there are lots of great players who have not managed the transition to be a good coach, its not as though our club is trying to put him on another pedestal, McManus knows his limitations and the risks.
The statue is there for his world class achievements as a player alone and nothing else and not based on future planning of being a head coach with a crystal ball.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:19 pm  

pies-r-us wrote:

Don't take every comment so literally, I don't say the club should do anything with the statue. My point is if the board was to get shut of KC then the statue becomes an embarrassment. They make him an idol with a statue, and then say your not good enough to be head coach. For me he's not a good coach, but keep him there I don't care! It's only an opinion. And as for the statue, it's a fitting tribute for any great player, I just feel it would have been better left to a later time when he had not got such a senior place at the club. In short the club could have a statue of a man they have either sacked, or demoted. Making the chap a fallen idol!

You've come fishing mate and talking utter crap.

The statue is for his service as a player and being a Saints great. It's nothing to do with him as a coach.

If we posted this on the Wigan board, we'd be banned.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:34 pm  

St pete wrote:

You've come fishing mate and talking utter crap.

The statue is for his service as a player and being a Saints great. It's nothing to do with him as a coach.

If we posted this on the Wigan board, we'd be banned.

Yeh but we are a liberal lot over here.
I can see why some outside would see it as awkward to sack the best player the club has had, but it's not without precedent.

The last greatest player to wear the redvee and then become coach was also sacked by the club.
But Murphy is still regarded as one of the greatest ever to have played the game.

He too is part of a statue at Wembley, but no one seems too embarrassed that he got thrown out at Saints.


I still think the 2 year extension was an error, to compound the initial one of picking him too early.
I'm a great believer in not sacking coaches mid-season and I think we are probably in a position that will secure his position until at least the end of the season.

If we had not rushed to sign him up for a further 2 years, there could have been a more pleasant parting of the ways. But the way it is going it looks like we would have to move him out before the contract ends.


It does seem strange to sign a coach to a top flight club that has no coaching record to speak of. But we did do it with Hanley and that worked well initially.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:39 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

I still think the 2 year extension was an error, to compound the initial one of picking him too early.
I'm a great believer in not sacking coaches mid-season and I think we are probably in a position that will secure his position until at least the end of the season.

If we had not rushed to sign him up for a further 2 years, there could have been a more pleasant parting of the ways. But the way it is going it looks like we would have to move him out before the contract ends.


It does seem strange to sign a coach to a top flight club that has no coaching record to speak of. But we did do it with Hanley and that worked well initially.

Blackbrook are looking for a head coach, I'm assuming there is no poaching agreement set down with MM and KC.

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:27 pm  

pies-r-us wrote:

I don't deny the man was a great player, and champion for the club. All I'm saying is it wasn't a great idea to make him head coach. A number of your own fans don't think he's up to the job, for me if the board ever wish to remove him as coach would not the statue business not be a great embarrassment to the club. The killer instinct he had as a player is missing as a coach, too much a mister nice guy. More liked than feared by the players, and for me you've got to be both in his job now.

Thats the danger of managing player that you played with a few years prior, it will always compromise your positio. How could he dress down Wilkin for a poor performance when he used to have the peg next to him.
Same thing happened when Daryl Powell first managed at Leeds, he did a decent job but it took bringing in a more ruthless Tony Smith who was prepared to drop club legends like Cummings to galvanise the team.

Smiths contract is up at the end of the year btw...

Re: St Helens v Catalans Dragons : Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:13 am  

St pete wrote:

You've come fishing mate and talking utter crap.

The statue is for his service as a player and being a Saints great. It's nothing to do with him as a coach.

If we posted this on the Wigan board, we'd be banned.

Why are people always fishing, trolling when they make a legitimate point for argument? I have only put a point of view out for possible discussion. I've not called anyone, or swore at anyone. I have said only that in my opinion (with which some Saints fans seem to agree) that KC is not a good coach, and is part of the reason why Saints are inconsistent at the minute. The statue was an aside to the main point. Off topic but relevant, these boards are for general discussion about RL and and that doesn't mean just saying nice things about any club. I don't believe I have broken any rules of the site. I treat people only as they deserve, as they treat me. but if you think I've over stepped the mark, then you must do as you please. Apologies for the off topic end rant.