Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:14 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

Yep.

..... Wilkin whilst doing a sterling job at half last year, I don't think would offer the same effectiveness as an interchange hooker as lance and would only offer the same as Jones as a second rower, without the ability to play in the backs.

Personally, I don't think Jones can do anything better than Wilkin. I haven't seen anything in Jones so far to suggest he's anything other than another of the identikit not-big-enough-not-fast-enough backrowers Saints produce in large numbers (Ashcroft, Clough, Magennis etc). Wilkin offers far more in my view.

In addition, if I was worried about centre coverage, I'd simply slip Soliola out into the centres and replace him in the pack with Wilkin.

As for LMS, I agree that his best position is second-row, with a bit more width to use his speed. But he doesn't have the guile or hands to do what Wilkin does at loose.

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:20 pm  

In a final. As we are talking about the best line up. I would not want to have to move arguably our best second row in sia to centre. It's all a bit academic as come the time we need our best line up. Some players will be in form others out of form or injured

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:32 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Yep.

Obviously during the season there would be a range of teams, but I think against the best teams LMS at loose forward will be ideal. There maybe changes dependent upon form, but in a final against the best team, you can't expect Roby to be at his best for a full 80 so he needs a replacement hooker.

Only Saints have experimented with this play Roby for a full 80 and to me it reduces his effectiveness and Lance is the best replacement for him at the moment. Running at tired legs he should have some effectiveness. Roby too can go more all out for the minutes he's on the pitch rather than having to pace himself.

Jones as a sub in a final is great. He can play as well as any other 2nd rower in the team probably apart from Sia and Manu. But if there is an injury at centre (like we had with Shenton) you are not shuffling the pack, he just slots in. If a winger is injured, Turner or Percival can move over and Jones fill in at centre.
If a half is injured. Lance can slot in, or Lomax can move forwards and Shift a winger to FB with jones moving in at Centre.

It's a big bench and our most flexible bench. Wilkin whilst doing a sterling job at half last year, I don't think would offer the same effectiveness as an interchange hooker as lance and would only offer the same as Jones as a second rower, without the ability to play in the backs.

Agree with your logic surrounding Lance and Jones on the bench.
I have a sneaky feeling that Dawson may end up paired in the centres with Turner, as suspect Percival isn't yet ready for week to week football.

Think that having both Walmsley and Masoe on the bench coming on around the same time, may actually be counter productive. As two big men lacking that mobility could get exposed.
Ideally IMO you need a workhorse and a blockbuster in the front row at the same time. Hence I would be more tempted to start with Amor and Walmsley then have LMS and Masoe rotating from the bench.
Potentially I think LMS and Masoe would work very well together. LMS is very mobile for a prop and is best used against a defence running backwards, as his speed and mobility can tear holes in a retreating defence. He isn't however very good against set defences, as he lacks the size to bulldoze over brick wall defences. Masoe on the other hand is a wrecking ball in this scenario. So we would have Masoe destroying the defensive structure, followed by short scoot and pass from Roby onto a charging LMS with opposition defences struggling to get set.

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:35 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

Think that having both Walmsley and Masoe on the bench coming on around the same time, may actually be counter productive. As two big men lacking that mobility could get exposed.

Yep the two of these are great impact players, but by their size and nature they are exposed defensively 1 on 1.
If they're one the pitch at different times, the rest of the team can cover, but not for both together

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:12 pm  

To be honest in my line up the one who I was not sure of was Laffranchi. So swapping him for Walmsley would be an idea.

My thought with LMS as a loose forward, is that it allows Masoe and Walmsley on at the same time as effectively you are running with 3 props. But also with Amor I'd think he would do big minutes.

So tactically, I'd be looking to interchange Laffranchi around 15 to 20 minutes in with Walmsley. Then a further 10 minutes in let Masoe come on for Amor until half time.

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:46 pm  

Roy Haggerty wrote:

Personally, I don't think Jones can do anything better than Wilkin. I haven't seen anything in Jones so far to suggest he's anything other than another of the identikit not-big-enough-not-fast-enough backrowers Saints produce in large numbers (Ashcroft, Clough, Magennis etc). Wilkin offers far more in my view.

When considering Jones as a second rower I agree with you.

Jones at centre on the other hand... We're all too quick to wax lyrical about the days of having a centre who can defend, both at saints and England. The guys defensive work is impressive in its own right, and even more so considering he's 20. Equally he clearly knows how to break the line (same number over the season as meli) he just needs to learn to finish them.

We seem to very quickly shift players like jones into the pack for the likes of more attacking minded players like Percival (not to say Percival isn't an exciting prospect in his own right) - but then wonder why we don't have strong defenders in the centres. Give jones 3 years to develop those finishing skills and we could have one of the best young centres in the world. If he doesn't move him into the second row as the workhorse replacement to Wilkin, bulking him up a bit.

Re: Our best lineup : Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:52 pm  

1. Lomax
2. Makinson
3. Turner
4. Percival
5. Gardner
6. Wheeler
7. Walsh
8. LMS
9. Roby
10. Amor
11. Soliola
12. Jones / Flanagan
13. Wilkin

14. Hohaia / Wellens
15. Walmsley
16. Lafranchi
17. Manu

Probably the only one to go for Gardner. However, I don't rate Swift and think that a defensive side of Percival / Swift would be little more than a calamity.

Equally, Manu needs to be used in small bursts - especially as he is aging and just a poor man's David Solomona.

Have to say however that the three-quarter line looks devoid of imagination compared to years gone past, although that seems to be the trend in Super League these days. (Leeds excepted)

We do seem to have a deep squad however. (although ultimately short on top quality)

Re: Our best lineup : Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:33 am  

How can you not rate Swift? I am completely baffled by that. He's hardly put a foot wrong for us. Good finisher, good kick returns, poses a threat from deep.

Percival flying out of the line once or twice has left Swift exposed but that is no fault of Swift's

Re: Our best lineup : Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:47 am  

There was only Lomax who made more clean breaks than Jones last year. He must be doing something right.

Re: Our best lineup : Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:51 am  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

How can you not rate Swift? I am completely baffled by that. He's hardly put a foot wrong for us. Good finisher, good kick returns, poses a threat from deep.

Swift's a really good player. Whilst and England cap might be hard for him with Hall and Charnely incumbent, he could well get up to the level of the likes of McGillvary and Lineham.