Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:20 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Why is it every time I post everything, you have a little spasm and paddy all over the place?

Is Wellens good enough for a new deal? No. Is Laffranchi? No. Do we need a new stand off. Clearly we do.

What is your point exactly?

Is Wellens good enough for a new deal? It depends...if he is signed on the same salary to play at full back every week then I agree, its a no. If however, he signs on a reduced salary as a cover player, with his experience helping the younger players to come through then yes he is worth another year.

Is Laffranchi good enough for a new deal? If you listen to your theory that "his stats are a myth" and "he doesnt offer anything" then obviously not. BUT...looking at it logically, Laffranchi is an Australian international back row forward. He is small for a front rower and his stats are still comparable to our top meter makers, and his defence is good. With Masoe, Amor, LMS, Walmsley, Beaumont & possibly Clough all competing for spots in the front row, I would imagine the back row will be fought out between Manu, Soliola, Wilkin, Flanagan & Laffranchi. With a bit more size in the pack up front, Boof can revert to the back row and give us a very good extra option there.

Do we need a new stand off? In an ideal world, we would have signed Benji Marshall or Johnathan Thurston and had done with it. Looking at it realistically, nobody on the market and available is better than what we already have. The main half back we have lacked is an organising half with a kicking game, and Walsh fills that void perfectly. This imo will allow Hohaia to play the take on the line, running game which he is suited to and between them could form a great partnership. Also have Wheeler to cover (on the odd occasion he is fit) and Wilkin can move there if it doesnt work, but until its tried who knows how Hohaia/Walsh will go. Suggestions of letting Hohaia & Wheeler go and looking at a player like Bosc who is 32 and unable to get into a 7th placed SL side is just laughable.


I also find it comical that, given the amount of injuries we suffered this season and how stretched our squad has been, you think reducing the numbers further is a good option. We have brought 4 players in for next season, and have let 3 go so far in Meli, TP & Perry. To suggest letting a further 5 players leave (Wellens, Hohaia, Laffranchi, Gardner & Wheeler) would mean we have even less numbers wise next year than this. Maybe (and this is just a totally random thought), NB has looked at this season and put together a squad with good strength in depth that can cope better with injuries, and also has a good blend of youth and experience?

Have you also ever thought (again, just playing devil's advocate) that Nathan Brown, Keiron Cunningham & Jamahl Lolesi have ever so slightly more knowledge than you about how to run a rugby team and what a SL squad needs? Likewise, have you considered that Eamonn McManus may know slightly more about the financial side of running a club, and this has something to do with the reason we havent gone paying players large sums to terminate their contracts, or paying huge transfer fees and over the top salaries for players such as Chase?

Just a possibility but hey ho dont let logical thoughts or realism get in the way of your deluded and wholly inaccurate views

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:38 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Why is it every time I post everything, you have a little spasm and paddy all over the place?

Is Wellens good enough for a new deal? No. Is Laffranchi? No. Do we need a new stand off. Clearly we do.

What is your point exactly?

No spasms or paddys - just reponses I know you haven't the intellect to deal with and I deal in facts not hysteria like you.

Here's a few more as I've deduced I need to be very literal:

1. I don't reply to everything you post. I neither have the time nor inclination to respond to the tidal wave of utter rubbish that emerges from your obsessive and negative mind and gets transferred to your keyboard. Still, must be good to be so under occupied and it's great to be able to expose the flaws in your ill thought through ramblings. Especially those you think are funny.

2. In my opinion yes but, as I posted earlier, let's go and see what the real experts have to say in response to your vitriolic dislike of anything Wellens-escque shall we? It's for a good cause and, as you appear so steadfast in your beliefs and are willing to attribute words like 'awful' and 'rubbish' to a Saints player, in addition to 'incompetent' to the coach and CEO, you won't mind expressing those views directly will you?

Of course we need a stand off but you have still patently failed to answer the question you've been asked by me and several others so I'll assume (like every other response) that you simply don't know.

3. As it's evidently still not clear to you my point(s) is(are) simple - your opinions are nothing but emotional claptrap based on a flawed belief that we are in a position we are not. So stop posting crap that is unrealistically negative and see the environment we operate in for what it is. Then we can be friends.

Really hope that helps but I'll work on a slightly more simplified version in anticipation of your inevitably wailing response.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:46 am  

As with anything I suppose it's about value for money and the key thing is we have no idea about the value.

We can guess, but maybe we are all assuming Wellens is on a golden years contract. Well what if he is not? What if Wellens contract is on little more than an academy player contract, whilst he builds up his coaching badges.

I agree his days in the starting line up are probably gone. In MY top 17 he will not make the bench. However, if we get an injury to Lomax (not unknown this year) why shuffle several people about?

We are already talking about letting Gardner go, so Makinson to FB would require a junior winger. If we move Lance, then we only have junior cover at hooker. Or it would mean moving a possible halfback pairing.

However, having a former GB international FB sitting in the squad, allows cover at FB without having to re-organise the whole team.

I do think there was a genuine attempt this season to convince Lance to go elsewhere. But for what ever reason he has chosen not to or has not been able to find any takers. So the only option would be to effectively sack him. (which is not really an option) So Lance staying is the block, but he has a contract and there is no point crying over milk spilt 2 seasons ago.

Wheeler for all his injuries, we again have no idea of the money. I would not equate it to Tommy God, as he had proven himself prior to injury, but it was worth the money invested to stick with him, Wheeler could be the same.

Laffranchi is the only one that I would say the club have had any room to manuver. It sounded like we nailed him down early in the season, before we knew we had landed Masoe, Amor etc...

It could at the time have been an insurance policy against losing a lot of our pack in Perry and TP.

In fantasy RL, you can buy and sell players at will as there are as many of the same player as are required by the game. But in the real world you have to plan ahead without knowing what you have got in total.

So on reflection I would say the club tried to let Lance go, but he has decided to stick it out.
Laffranchi was kept as insurance in case we ended up with next to no experience in the front row next year.

It's easier with a now full pack to say let him go, but if he was the first to sign up then it's not so simple.

If Masoe, Amor had decided to play for somewhere else, then keeping Laffranchi would not seem so unreasonable as we would be looking at beaumount and some lesser props to join us.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:50 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

As with anything I suppose it's about value for money and the key thing is we have no idea about the value.

We can guess, but maybe we are all assuming Wellens is on a golden years contract. Well what if he is not? What if Wellens contract is on little more than an academy player contract, whilst he builds up his coaching badges.

I agree his days in the starting line up are probably gone. In MY top 17 he will not make the bench. However, if we get an injury to Lomax (not unknown this year) why shuffle several people about?

We are already talking about letting Gardner go, so Makinson to FB would require a junior winger. If we move Lance, then we only have junior cover at hooker. Or it would mean moving a possible halfback pairing.

However, having a former GB international FB sitting in the squad, allows cover at FB without having to re-organise the whole team.

I do think there was a genuine attempt this season to convince Lance to go elsewhere. But for what ever reason he has chosen not to or has not been able to find any takers. So the only option would be to effectively sack him. (which is not really an option) So Lance staying is the block, but he has a contract and there is no point crying over milk spilt 2 seasons ago.

Wheeler for all his injuries, we again have no idea of the money. I would not equate it to Tommy God, as he had proven himself prior to injury, but it was worth the money invested to stick with him, Wheeler could be the same.

Laffranchi is the only one that I would say the club have had any room to manuver. It sounded like we nailed him down early in the season, before we knew we had landed Masoe, Amor etc...

It could at the time have been an insurance policy against losing a lot of our pack in Perry and TP.

In fantasy RL, you can buy and sell players at will as there are as many of the same player as are required by the game. But in the real world you have to plan ahead without knowing what you have got in total.

So on reflection I would say the club tried to let Lance go, but he has decided to stick it out.
Laffranchi was kept as insurance in case we ended up with next to no experience in the front row next year.

It's easier with a now full pack to say let him go, but if he was the first to sign up then it's not so simple.

If Masoe, Amor had decided to play for somewhere else, then keeping Laffranchi would not seem so unreasonable as we would be looking at beaumount and some lesser props to join us.

I think that's a pretty realistic assessment of where we are at. I am sure we've explored those options but not been able to execute the ones that are hurting us (Lance) and probably had to move on Amor more quickly than we had planned given his availability a year before we anticipated.

I think we have done ok so far. Granted we need a 6 but I'd rather hang fire and get someone who fits and is of the quality we need than make a panic buy and be locked into another contract with a misfit/under achiever.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:56 am  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

Unfortunately the truth hurts some people. As you said in an earlier post, when it comes to Wellens it is pure sentimental nonsense to offer him a new deal.

So are you suggesting that Nathan Brown, Mike Rush and Eamonn have offered/will offer Paul Wellens a deal purely on the basis that he's been with us a long time or that he's a 'good guy'? Really? Or could it be that, however limited, they actually do see a bit art role for him next year either in a backup or role model capacity? The latter is more likely and far more plausible I suspect.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:58 am  

wakey_saint wrote:

Do we need a new stand off? In an ideal world, we would have signed Benji Marshall or Johnathan Thurston and had done with it. Looking at it realistically, nobody on the market and available is better than what we already have. The main half back we have lacked is an organising half with a kicking game, and Walsh fills that void perfectly. This imo will allow Hohaia to play the take on the line, running game which he is suited to and between them could form a great partnership. Also have Wheeler to cover (on the odd occasion he is fit) and Wilkin can move there if it doesnt work, but until its tried who knows how Hohaia/Walsh will go. Suggestions of letting Hohaia & Wheeler go and looking at a player like Bosc who is 32 and unable to get into a 7th placed SL side is just laughable.

The trouble is, I don't see any evidence of this aspect to his game. When he plays at stand off 99% of the time he just stands deep and moves the ball on without taking a step forward. If he took the ball forward he might interest some defenders and create some space for the players outside him, but if he knows he isn't going to run the ball he just passes it on. To me he seems far more effective when he's played at hooker and is therefore forced to play in defenders' faces. I suppose he could learn to play at the line more, but I doubt he's going to develop a stand off's instincts at his age.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:05 am  

wakey_saint wrote:

Have you also ever thought (again, just playing devil's advocate) that Nathan Brown, Keiron Cunningham & Jamahl Lolesi have ever so slightly more knowledge than you about how to run a rugby team and what a SL squad needs?

I'm sure they do. But how much of an input do they get exactly? Brown clearly spotted that Wellens was a terrible modern fullback that was holding us back massively, so he moved him. Is Wellens' new deal what Brown wants? I doubt it is, I highly doubt he gets a say in it. Mike Rush is probably behind decisions like that.

wakey_saint wrote:

Likewise, have you considered that Eamonn McManus may know slightly more about the financial side of running a club

I'm sure he does. The fact that we've gone from the best side in Super League to being a mid table side outside of a realistic chance of winning trophies under his control suggests that, as I've been suggesting for a few years, the rugby side of things has been consistently secondary to the stadium and the financial stability of the club. Which is fine, as a fan I totally support that. If he came out and said we're holding back to build the stadium and avoid insolvency I'd totally support that and shut up about the lack of a quality outcome on the field. But then McManus contradicts that by claiming the club is spending the full salary cap (Which if true, removes any excuses for us being trophyless for so long) and his annual insistence that the squad is good enough to win Super League, which it clearly isn't. The recruitment and retention decisions over the past 5/6 years have also been awful. If directly constricted by the stadium and finances, again fine, but it isn't what they claim. The club isn't therefore immune from criticism, as mistakes have been made, consistently, for a long time now.

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:11 am  

Allez wrote:

So are you suggesting that Nathan Brown, Mike Rush and Eamonn have offered/will offer Paul Wellens a deal purely on the basis that he's been with us a long time or that he's a 'good guy'? Really? Or could it be that, however limited, they actually do see a bit art role for him next year either in a backup or role model capacity? The latter is more likely and far more plausible I suspect.

The second is no excuse for him being in the 17 every week, which he seemingly has to be.

He's absolutely no use from the bench at all, he offers literally nothing. He's behind Lomax, Makinson, Swift and Hohaia at fullback and he's not good enough to make the squad in the pack.

If he's going to be retained as a role model, make him a coach. Why bother wasting a valuable bench spot and cap room on him? Can anyone really see him being dropped next season?

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:18 am  

Saddened! wrote:

The second is no excuse for him being in the 17 every week, which he seemingly has to be.

He's absolutely no use from the bench at all, he offers literally nothing. He's behind Lomax, Makinson, Swift and Hohaia at fullback and he's not good enough to make the squad in the pack.

If he's going to be retained as a role model, make him a coach. Why bother wasting a valuable bench spot and cap room on him? Can anyone really see him being dropped next season?

Hmm interesting questions. Fans forum maybe?

Re: Saints first choice next year : Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:30 am  

Allez wrote:

Hmm interesting questions. Fans forum maybe?

What would that achieve? It would be like criticising a politician. They would just come back with a load of soundbites.

Plus, it would be like Batman taking his mask off. Super heroes don't reveal their true identities.