Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:26 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Have you compared those stats to other fullbacks in superleague?

He is bound to be our highest try scorer. He never passes out within the 20 until he scores one himself. On one occasion I counted three of his failed attempts to cross the line in one match when had he passed the ball instead of trying for the line himself we would likely have scored. He scored eventually but meanwhile potentially deprived the team of three tries. He does this in each match, although not necessarily to the same degree. It drives me nuts sometimes when I'm watching because he is putting the result at risk.

I watch when we do our shift play (you know, the only one we have), and most times, Wello has no option but to keep hold. Lomas and Hohoia don't take the ball to the line (Leuluia, Finch and Tomkins have this down to a fine art), so we are easy to read. The edge defence can move up, knowing who they marking - meaning should Wello pass, the centre would get clobbered, or even worse intercepted. When he has time and space, he does pass, and create tries.

I'm not saying he makes the right decision all of the time, but a lot of the time, keeping hold is his ONLY option. For me, Lomax is far, far worse at decision making - he does his little kick step and takes the line on when a pass out wide would be a better option.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:39 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

I think we are being left behind.

That's what it comes down to for me. I love Wellens the player. I rate his commitment to our cause to be the most I've seen since I've been watching the game. He is capable of playing at this level. However we are competing at a level which highlights his attacking weaknesses in a time when the full back position needs faster, more agile input from its occupant. Is it a coincidence that the three teams who have consistently caused us problems over the past three years (the time period during which this issue has become more prominent) all have had full backs faster than ours i.e. Pies, Wire, Leeds.

The role of the full back has changed and Wellens has certainly developed his game over the years. He can play the role well but he is not improving each year and he certainly isn't getting quicker or more mobile. Most people would say that, at best, he's stayed the same on those two attributes for about these past three years.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:55 pm  

St. Etrigan wrote:

His ability to join the line at just the right time is evident by the number of trys and assists he has this season

That's a key point for those of arguing for a faster option. Look at Wellens' return and then imagine how many more we could have with a speedier/more agile option. Despite playing very well on Friday there were more than a couple of occasions that Wellens was getting the ball too far away from the defensive line for his level of speed. It means that when he hits the defensive line they've had that extra half second or so to move across thereby negating any advantage our dummy runners/misdirection moves make closer to the middle. Tomkins, Hodgson and even Webb don't afford the same opportunity for defenders.

Nobody is saying Wellens can't produce. What we are saying is that a faster player would be more beneficial to the overall pattern of our attacking play.

St. Etrigan wrote:

His kick returns are generally sound and make ground, his evasive qualities keep him away from the opposition more times than he gets tackled easily - this gives the team time to regroup.

This used to be the best aspect of Wellens' play for me. Certainly he was the best returning full back in the league for a few years because he would often break the first tackle. He does this a lot less now and although I agree with your view that he gives us time to regroup, I also think his slower speed i.e. retrieving the ball, turning, returning, means that we lose out either via a lesser return or poorer position i.e. any kick that goes past him is horrible for us.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:20 am  

Judder Man wrote:

For people who reckon Wellens is NOT an attacking full back:

Wellens this season:
Is the clubs highest try scorer
Is the clubs highest for tackle busts.
Is in second place to Meli for clean breaks.

And for consistency he has scored 210 career tries as well.

Being a stats-man, I thought'd I'd have a look at this. To give it a bit of context, you need to have a look at the number of carries Wellens makes, he has carried the ball 383 times, for 2312 metres (6m per carry), the following have a better m/carry; Meli 9.2, Solioa 6.9, Makinson 7.6, Laffranchi 7.4, Jones 7.1, Flannery 6.1, Shenton 6.6, Swift 8.7, Dixo, 7.4, Wheeler 7.3, Puletua 8.2, Flanagan 6.2, Clough 8, Perry 7. When you think Wello generally has 10m or so without any defender in front of him. His tries per carry is pretty comparable to the rest of the squad also.

If you just look at the metres per carry for the rest of the league, Hardaker 7.7, Eden 8, Tomkins 7.4, Mathers 5.8, Ratchford 8.3, Hodgson 6.5, S Briscoe 5.8, T Briscoe 8.6

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:31 am  

McLennan - You make some interesting observations - most of which I have no issues with at all - my issue at this time is the way that some people want to rip the side apart just to replace Wellens at fullback.

Is his star on the wane - absolutely. Do we have anyone who is accomplished enough to replace him for the end of this season - the answer to that is no, we have some prospects but right now playing them at fullback would reduce the effectiveness of the team as a whole.

I think it was time about 12 months ago to find a replacement for Wellens - but the method to do that wasnt to remove him from the team, but more about getting his replacement up to speed so any transition is smooth. So Wellens works with him on the parts that only he can teach, but working with the coaches and the half backs to enable the team to also change their style.

Since we have changed coaches in that time and Rush has had to stabalise rather than change things I dont know if that transition was ever on the table.
What I do know is that he is still good enough to play fullback and better than most, if we are going to replace him IMO it will be done one of two ways. We identify his successor and work on the transition over the next 12 months or Wellens gets injured and we happen across a player who can fill that role and then work on the finer points.
Somebody mentioned the quality of the ball to him - usually from the halfbacks - do you think that your point about the defenders having more time to deal with his threat is down to the fact that certainly one halfback doesnt seem to take on the line? Speed would certainly help to negate this but so would a better halfback.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:42 am  

Something that has heaped frustration on this topic is that Wellens is very rarely injured and when he was at the beginning of the season (2 games, I think), we were not a team that was functioning very well at all. So, these arguments that we have, that player X,Y or Z would be more constructive are practically 100% conjecture.

If Wello had needed a 2-3 week break this season since Rush took over, then perhaps we'd have a bit more clarity on the subject.

I do vaugley remember that when Eastmond stepped into #1 last year we were, at least going forward, a much more dangerous proposition.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:53 am  

Sorry to help with the de-railing of this thread about a talented young player.

If you look at the changes in the structure of teams in the last 10 years Super league teams have always had at least 4 key playmakers. Ten years ago it was 6,7,9,13 now it is 1,6,7,9 with the loose forward more like a third prop. So essentially in attack you are swapping an extra runner on the fringes for an extra big man in the middle. The problem is we have adopted the modern 13 i.e. Clough/TP/Flanagan/Flannery but we have kept the old fashioned fullback. This leaves us with only 3 playmakers, one is a young lad (Lomax), the other is inexperienced in the position (Hohaia) which leaves our hooker (Roby). Thus the mantra "Stop Roby, Stop Saints"

So in the end we either need to replace Wellens or we need a playmaking loose forward. If you move Wellens to another position you are just moving the problem.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:00 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Something that has heaped frustration on this topic is that Wellens is very rarely injured and when he was at the beginning of the season (2 games, I think), we were not a team that was functioning very well at all. So, these arguments that we have, that player X,Y or Z would be more constructive are practically 100% conjecture.

If Wello had needed a 2-3 week break this season since Rush took over, then perhaps we'd have a bit more clarity on the subject.

I do vaugley remember that when Eastmond stepped into #1 last year we were, at least going forward, a much more dangerous proposition.

Ashe looked dangerous away at Hull last year as well. As you say it is hard to know without seeing the team without Wellens if it would be an improvement. But you have to break some eggs to make an omelette. We have to be willing to give some players a go in the position and be prepared for them to make mistakes to find the right man. I have no doubt that the Wello groupies would be screaming on here the second a bomb gets dropped by a replacement in the same way the Foster lovers cry every time a conversion is missed.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:35 pm  

Noel Cleal wrote:

Sorry to help with the de-railing of this thread about a talented young player.

If you look at the changes in the structure of teams in the last 10 years Super league teams have always had at least 4 key playmakers. Ten years ago it was 6,7,9,13 now it is 1,6,7,9 with the loose forward more like a third prop. So essentially in attack you are swapping an extra runner on the fringes for an extra big man in the middle. The problem is we have adopted the modern 13 i.e. Clough/TP/Flanagan/Flannery but we have kept the old fashioned fullback. This leaves us with only 3 playmakers, one is a young lad (Lomax), the other is inexperienced in the position (Hohaia) which leaves our hooker (Roby). Thus the mantra "Stop Roby, Stop Saints"

So in the end we either need to replace Wellens or we need a playmaking loose forward. If you move Wellens to another position you are just moving the problem.

Its a point well made, I think that when Wilkin is playing that he tries to cover the traditional loose forward type of playmaker, but he now gets involved in so many tackles that he will not have the required energy in some parts of the game. It was mentioned that wellens was asked to try and become that extra play maker and he has the ball playing ability to be able to do that - but he doesnt seem to be covering it as well as the others who have natural pace.
It is without doubt a difficult position we find ourselves in - with no clear and easy way out. It certainly isnt helped when we have coach's who will not be running the team next year. I hope that Brown has been guiding the current staff to put processes in place to bear fruit next year.

Re: Swift : Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:12 pm  

hotpot100 wrote:

and most times, Wello has no option but to keep hold.

Sometime I feel for Wello. In those situations, he's like the guy on star trek with the red uniform.
Our play is reletively predictable - Has been since potter.
Add to that slow distribution by Hohaia and slow movement off the ball by Wello and it culminates in an easy defend for our opposition. If they go one step further and agressively target him in defence, then it buggers us right up.