Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:52 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

I agree, but is it going to happen? All the people 'in the know' have said that Brown has identified that we desperately need a half back, which suggests he's not too keen on what we have at the moment. But the positive signs were there on the BBC when Brown questioned Saints' sanity in picking Hohaia as a halfback. Hopefully he's got a plan, because if we continue with Rush's idiotic plan of Wellens, Hohaia and Lomax for another 12 months I may well explode with frustration. The only other places he could play Hohaia are fullback, which would make the resigning of Wellens just a sentimental folly which is unlike Eamon, or at hooker, which would mean Roby would have to take up a part time job working the bars, as he's a machine.

Rush has come in to steady the ship. He's done nothing revolutionary, but he did stop the rot at a time when it was hard to see where the next win would come from.

He's avoided the tough decisions, and his recent interviews about avoiding any real changes leading into the play offs tells us we'll go forward to the end of the season with what we've perservered with since he took over. It's not a great situation, but it's what we have.

Brown's mission is a very different one. This is his last chance to land that NRL gig he desperately craves. If he gets Saints amongst the pots, he'll attract some attention over in Aus. If he fails, he'll not get looked at and will spend the remainder of his career at Salford, Cas or Widnes.

He needs to find a method of opening up the more structured defences, and the Wellens, Hohaia and Lomax triumvirate has been shown to struggle.

He will therefore need to make the tough decisions that Rush / KC have been able to swerve.

That said, I believe Wello is a shoe in at FB next season. As you say, if he wasn't we wouldn't be offering another deal. Half back is where the change will occur, which will mean a different role for either LH or JL. Alternating hooker is actually most likely, IMO.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:00 pm  

There seems to be a couple of points floating round that I simply cannot avoid putting an argument against.

Simply put Lance Hohaia isnt a good player at this club - for me he pinched a WC winners medal by being in a team that was simply better than the opposition, he was the one player in that team that I looked at and wondered how the hell he managed to get into the national side. I didnt see enough of his club football to make a call on that. But Simply being in the winning team doesnt make you a good player - just compare him to the full back in the losing team who was Billy Slater. As a half back he doesnt have any control of the game, as a hooker his distribution is poor at the best - he has some pace of the mark and decent evasion skills, but against a well drilled defence he shows nothing. People seemed to forget he played full back at the beginning of the season - and sucked big time - what has anyone seen since to suggest he has what it takes to be a modern full back?

Lee Gaskell is not the answer at half back - I fail to see what he actually offers - people say he has a great kicking game, from what I have seen this really translates to he can kick the ball really far. That isnt a great kicking game - what people like Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers, Kevin Sinfield, Sean Long, Andy Gregory could do when kicking the ball was a great kicking game, they had the ability to be able to keep teams away from your try line no matter what the opposition threw at you. They had the ability to control the game simply through their accuracy of their kicking game. That is a great kicking game.
There seems to be an argument that he should be left at half back to develop his game and keep him and Lomax together to develop a partnership - he played pretty much all of last season doing that - if after that length of time he hasnt built a partnership then what are the chances he will.
If I was in his position and was fighting for a place against a player who is seriously under perfoming then each chance I got I would be bringing my A+ game to impress and make it impossible to drop me. Each time he has had a chance this season he has failed to impress - please tell me I am wrong with examples of where he has been impressive. I like the idea of a St. helens lad playing for St. helens as much as anyone - but he isnt the answer at half back.

Josh Jones has been completely anonymous over the last 6 - 8 games, I feel sorry for the lad as this may be due to halfback issues and this being his first real season - however I would not put him up as the next great hope at Centre - his game needs to improve a lot before that could happen - right now I would look at Meli and Turner and Wheeler as potential centres next year ahead of him.

The final point is Paul Wellens - apart from a couple of people who are on a crusade to belittle his every move, is there anyone who doesnt see the reality of the situation. Players like Tomkins, Slater do not come around too often, but as they are here right now then everyone seems to think that a fullback has to play in that style - whether they are suited to it or not - teams who are trying to emulate that style of play are trying to copy the Mona Lisa with a paste brush. You need to put in a game plan that includes all of your best players and play them in a style that works for them and the team. The number of tries that he has scored this season attest to his ability still to play at this level in his own style. I am not blind to the fact that he isnt as good as he was 5 years ago - and will probably have only 1 more year at the club at the most - but everyone wants to play any man and his dog at fullback, rather than the best fullback we have at the club - it smacks a little of desperation to me..

We arent as good as we were - and to a lot of you young guys that probably stings just a little too much - but as you get older you hopefully get wiser, with that comes the realisation that you cannot simply rip everything up and start again - and hope to be good straight away - the simple fact is that a once fantastic team, full of hall of fame players has now dissapeared - and while that was happening we have still been good enough to make 6 grand finals in a row. if we dont make it this year it seems a lot of people on here think that we need to get rid of every player including our 2 top try scorers, including our second top meter maker, Including our second top tackler. I simply dont get where people think that we can replace all of these people with better players.
It cant and wont work like that - changes to structures - changes to individuals, that is how the club will move forward, not get rid of people who are very good players. The really good point is that we are simply not that far from being a top side - when Maguire came in at Wigan he didnt get rid of everyone, he had the same squad virtually as Noble did - he brought in new ideas, played to a tighter structure and brought in a few players - low and behold they are now a top side again. This is the way it will work.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:05 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

People seemed to forget he played full back at the beginning of the season - and sucked big time

When? His first two games at a new club in a new country whilst Wellens was still injured? Hardly worthy of judgement to be fair.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:40 am  

why is everyone assuming that just because Wello is being offered a new contract he is guaranteed to start at FB? He could quite easily have been told that he is only going to be a general squad player.

For him, he gets another year at his home town club and doesnt have to do the Paul Newlove thing and droop around the lower end of the league getting beaten every week, and wont have to put himself through the rigours of playing 80 minutes every week.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:11 am  

EHW wrote:

why is everyone assuming that just because Wello is being offered a new contract he is guaranteed to start at FB? He could quite easily have been told that he is only going to be a general squad player.

For him, he gets another year at his home town club and doesnt have to do the Paul Newlove thing and droop around the lower end of the league getting beaten every week, and wont have to put himself through the rigours of playing 80 minutes every week.

Because we've not moved him for one single minute of his career so far, unless he's been injured. He never gets rotated like the others do, he never gets dropped for one of the youngsters or Lance when he's playing poorly and we never rest him when we've got an easy game.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:27 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Because we've not moved him for one single minute of his career so far, unless he's been injured. He never gets rotated like the others do, he never gets dropped for one of the youngsters or Lance when he's playing poorly and we never rest him when we've got an easy game.

Nathan Brown has never done anything with Wellens. We don't know a single thing about the plans that Brown has for 2013, be that with Wello or anyone else at FB.

The only thing that we do know, is from his comments at the Widnes cup game about Hohaia i.e. he recognises that he is a world class player and doesn't necessarily see him as a half back.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:47 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

Lee Gaskell is not the answer at half back -

There seems to be an argument that he should be left at half back to develop his game and keep him and Lomax together to develop a partnership - he played pretty much all of last season doing that - if after that length of time he hasnt built a partnership then what are the chances he will.

Leeds have won several Grand Finals with Burrow and McGuire, who were given time to develop into the roles. I don't think either of them has as much potential as either Gaskell or Lomax. Why are you not prepared to give our halves the same opportunity as Leeds gave their's?

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:36 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

Lee Gaskell is not the answer at half back - I fail to see what he actually offers - people say he has a great kicking game, from what I have seen this really translates to he can kick the ball really far. That isnt a great kicking game - what people like Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers, Kevin Sinfield, Sean Long, Andy Gregory could do when kicking the ball was a great kicking game, they had the ability to be able to keep teams away from your try line no matter what the opposition threw at you. They had the ability to control the game simply through their accuracy of their kicking game. That is a great kicking game.
There seems to be an argument that he should be left at half back to develop his game and keep him and Lomax together to develop a partnership - he played pretty much all of last season doing that - if after that length of time he hasnt built a partnership then what are the chances he will.
If I was in his position and was fighting for a place against a player who is seriously under perfoming then each chance I got I would be bringing my A+ game to impress and make it impossible to drop me. Each time he has had a chance this season he has failed to impress - please tell me I am wrong with examples of where he has been impressive. I like the idea of a St. helens lad playing for St. helens as much as anyone - but he isnt the answer at half back.

It's a long piece to comment on every part, but I'll pick up a few of these points.

That isnt a great kicking game - what people like Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers, Kevin Sinfield, Sean Long, Andy Gregory could do when kicking the ball was a great kicking game,

I think there is an error to match Gaskell up to these players, as when you name these players people refer back to them in their pomp. Last year was Gaskells first year and as I recall when Long came to Saints he had a shocking kicking game. Long developed that kicking game over a period of time. Gaskell has been given one year and I thought he had a good long and short kicking game. His Grubbers were effective, he hit the line at speed (but lacked enough bulk), his long kicking game was effective and dug Saints out of holes when we were on the back foot and not making headway with the pack.

There seems to be an argument that he should be left at half back to develop his game and keep him and Lomax together to develop a partnership - he played pretty much all of last season doing that - if after that length of time he hasnt built a partnership then what are the chances he will.

I'd say he did build a partnership over last year.

If I was in his position and was fighting for a place against a player who is seriously under perfoming then each chance I got I would be bringing my A+ game to impress and make it impossible to drop me. Each time he has had a chance this season he has failed to impress - please tell me I am wrong with examples of where he has been impressive.

I'll agree on this, yet Lance has played without impressing for more than 3 games all year.


I don't think Gaskell is quality of Long in his prime, but I do think he matched it up last year with some very experienced halves and came out ontop. Neither would I expect a rookie to be as good as long in his prime.

If we look at the current toast of SL at halfback, Brough.

He has been a journey man here there and everywhere and has never been considered by top sides until he went with brown to Huddersfield.
Point being Gaskell had a good year last year and like all our youth a bit of a downer on the 2nd year, but has not really had a chance to recover that form. Whose to say that given a good run in a 3rd year he will not be back to his best.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:09 pm  

EHW wrote:

why is everyone assuming that just because Wello is being offered a new contract he is guaranteed to start at FB? He could quite easily have been told that he is only going to be a general squad player.

For him, he gets another year at his home town club and doesnt have to do the Paul Newlove thing and droop around the lower end of the league getting beaten every week, and wont have to put himself through the rigours of playing 80 minutes every week.

This would concern me even more. We have no need for a 'general squad player'; Wello has only ever impressed at FB. If he isn't being signed to play there, then he shouldn't be signed at all.

To retain him so that he doesn't have to play for 80 minutes or get beat playing for a duff team would be to waste valuable cap space on sentimental nonsense. If that is the case, I'd be extremely worried about the decision making of this club.

Re: Wigan to sign another halfback : Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:47 pm  

St. Etrigan wrote:

There seems to be a couple of points floating round that I simply cannot avoid putting an argument against.

Simply put Lance Hohaia isnt a good player at this club - for me he pinched a WC winners medal by being in a team that was simply better than the opposition, he was the one player in that team that I looked at and wondered how the hell he managed to get into the national side. I didnt see enough of his club football to make a call on that. But Simply being in the winning team doesnt make you a good player - just compare him to the full back in the losing team who was Billy Slater. As a half back he doesnt have any control of the game, as a hooker his distribution is poor at the best - he has some pace of the mark and decent evasion skills, but against a well drilled defence he shows nothing. People seemed to forget he played full back at the beginning of the season - and sucked big time - what has anyone seen since to suggest he has what it takes to be a modern full back?

Lee Gaskell is not the answer at half back - I fail to see what he actually offers - people say he has a great kicking game, from what I have seen this really translates to he can kick the ball really far. That isnt a great kicking game - what people like Bobbie Goulding, Lee Briers, Kevin Sinfield, Sean Long, Andy Gregory could do when kicking the ball was a great kicking game, they had the ability to be able to keep teams away from your try line no matter what the opposition threw at you. They had the ability to control the game simply through their accuracy of their kicking game. That is a great kicking game.
There seems to be an argument that he should be left at half back to develop his game and keep him and Lomax together to develop a partnership - he played pretty much all of last season doing that - if after that length of time he hasnt built a partnership then what are the chances he will.
If I was in his position and was fighting for a place against a player who is seriously under perfoming then each chance I got I would be bringing my A+ game to impress and make it impossible to drop me. Each time he has had a chance this season he has failed to impress - please tell me I am wrong with examples of where he has been impressive. I like the idea of a St. helens lad playing for St. helens as much as anyone - but he isnt the answer at half back.

Josh Jones has been completely anonymous over the last 6 - 8 games, I feel sorry for the lad as this may be due to halfback issues and this being his first real season - however I would not put him up as the next great hope at Centre - his game needs to improve a lot before that could happen - right now I would look at Meli and Turner and Wheeler as potential centres next year ahead of him.

The final point is Paul Wellens - apart from a couple of people who are on a crusade to belittle his every move, is there anyone who doesnt see the reality of the situation. Players like Tomkins, Slater do not come around too often, but as they are here right now then everyone seems to think that a fullback has to play in that style - whether they are suited to it or not - teams who are trying to emulate that style of play are trying to copy the Mona Lisa with a paste brush. You need to put in a game plan that includes all of your best players and play them in a style that works for them and the team. The number of tries that he has scored this season attest to his ability still to play at this level in his own style. I am not blind to the fact that he isnt as good as he was 5 years ago - and will probably have only 1 more year at the club at the most - but everyone wants to play any man and his dog at fullback, rather than the best fullback we have at the club - it smacks a little of desperation to me..

We arent as good as we were - and to a lot of you young guys that probably stings just a little too much - but as you get older you hopefully get wiser, with that comes the realisation that you cannot simply rip everything up and start again - and hope to be good straight away - the simple fact is that a once fantastic team, full of hall of fame players has now dissapeared - and while that was happening we have still been good enough to make 6 grand finals in a row. if we dont make it this year it seems a lot of people on here think that we need to get rid of every player including our 2 top try scorers, including our second top meter maker, Including our second top tackler. I simply dont get where people think that we can replace all of these people with better players.
It cant and wont work like that - changes to structures - changes to individuals, that is how the club will move forward, not get rid of people who are very good players. The really good point is that we are simply not that far from being a top side - when Maguire came in at Wigan he didnt get rid of everyone, he had the same squad virtually as Noble did - he brought in new ideas, played to a tighter structure and brought in a few players - low and behold they are now a top side again. This is the way it will work.

Well blow me, a sensible and well reasoned post. Quick, ban him for talking sense