Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:17 pm  

One stat you've conveniently missed off is appearances, without that your analysis is useless. Hogdson is a vastly better player than Wellens and isn't hampered by a crippling lack of pace and mobility. He can still chime into the attack and lets face it Warrington can rotate him and play him as and when they like. If they play Ratchford there, they aren't really losing anything, so Hodgson can have a rest whenever he needs to. Wellens on the other hand is terrible, horrifically slow, defensively a liability as he's never where he needs to be and offensively an absolute black hole.

Who fit the bill of a decent prop? Chris Hill did, as did Andy Lynch. Yet moronically we signed a back rower who has been shown up by all the big sides in Super League as not being up to playing prop.

We seem to be locked into a repeated arguement, you claim there is no one available to sign who is better than what we've already got. That's nonsense.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:53 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

One stat you've conveniently missed off is appearances, without that your analysis is useless.

Wellens has played 20 games, Hodgson has played 14, yet Wellens has scored almost 3 x as many tries as Hodgson, not far from 3 x as many tackle busts, 3 x as many clean breaks, his average gain with the ball per game is much higher and Wello has made 3 less errors than him...therefore the analysis represents Wellens to have played about 25% more games than Hodgson, yet a lot of his statistics are well over 50% better than Hodgson has managed...and apparently Hodgson is worth a 2 year deal yet Wello doesnt deserve anything??

Saddened! wrote:

Who fit the bill of a decent prop? Chris Hill did, as did Andy Lynch. Yet moronically we signed a back rower who has been shown up by all the big sides in Super League as not being up to playing prop.

2 props available last season, but we chose to go for Laffranchi who for the majority of the year has been our best forward...Lynch and Hill have got more size to them and are out and out props, but Laffranchi has done a very good job for us

Saddened! wrote:

We seem to be locked into a repeated arguement, you claim there is no one available to sign who is better than what we've already got. That's nonsense.

Ok then...who? Who is available currently as a prop, stand off, full back or anything else that would be a realistic target for us to sign and is better than what we currently have?

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:12 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

Wellens has played 20 games, Hodgson has played 14, yet Wellens has scored almost 3 x as many tries as Hodgson, not far from 3 x as many tackle busts, 3 x as many clean breaks, his average gain with the ball per game is much higher and Wello has made 3 less errors than him...therefore the analysis represents Wellens to have played about 25% more games than Hodgson, yet a lot of his statistics are well over 50% better than Hodgson has managed...and apparently Hodgson is worth a 2 year deal yet Wello doesnt deserve anything??

2 props available last season, but we chose to go for Laffranchi who for the majority of the year has been our best forward...Lynch and Hill have got more size to them and are out and out props, but Laffranchi has done a very good job for us

Ok then...who? Who is available currently as a prop, stand off, full back or anything else that would be a realistic target for us to sign and is better than what we currently have?

How am I supposed to know who is available? Player's agents don't tell me. But there are always players available and every season for the past 4 or 5 years we could list several players who would have been better for us than what we now have, that have moved to other clubs. Off the top of my head I can name Manuokafoa, Ferriol, Moa and O'Meley from SL who would all get into our team and there are always plenty in the NRL if we could get rid of someone, from a link on the VT Poore, Kite, Boyd, Packer and Cashmere are all off contract and would waltz into our team.

There are also bound to be more of the likes of Chris Hill in the Championship. To say 'there's no one to sign' is just silly, players good enough for our first team will move. We could sort two of the problem positions out internally, Makinson or Hohaia to fullback, Gaskell to 7, Wellens released and a prop signed.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

How am I supposed to know who is available? Player's agents don't tell me.

Well how do you know that the players available to sign are better than what we already have?

Saddened! wrote:

Off the top of my head I can name Manuokafoa, Ferriol, Moa and O'Meley from SL who would all get into our team and there are always plenty in the NRL if we could get rid of someone, from a link on the VT Poore, Kite, Boyd, Packer and Cashmere are all off contract and would waltz into our team.

Again, this depends on quota spaces and wouldnt want to lose Soliola, TP or Laffranchi for them, Perry has been playing well lately (therefore swapping a prop for a prop if he was to go) and Hohaia (and I wouldnt lose him for a prop and hope to fill that gap with a British stand off as nobody is available thats good enough, and Gaskell showed early in season he isnt ready to be our regular 6 just yet). Also, how many of the listed NRL players would want to come to SL??

Saddened! wrote:

There are also bound to be more of the likes of Chris Hill in the Championship.

Possibly, but for every Chris Hill, there is a lot more that look good at Championship level but arent good enough for SL...tony Tonks looked great for Featherstone last year in Championship but how has he done at Huddersfield for example??

Saddened! wrote:

To say 'there's no one to sign' is just silly, players good enough for our first team will move. We could sort two of the problem positions out internally, Makinson or Hohaia to fullback, Gaskell to 7, Wellens released and a prop signed.

When players move on then we have gaps to fill, but if a player is already at the club and is better than whats available then why replace it. As for Wellens, he is our top try scorer this season, still safe as houses and his experience will help Makinson/other young players develop as a full back, if Hodgson is worth 2 years at Wire then Wello defo worth another year for us

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:45 pm  

You could equally say the same about wigoon, if you supported them, who would you keep? Tomkins. Who else? Difficult to pick any standout players that you would bust a gut to save, but as a team they are far better than the sum of their individual abilities. The most important person at Wigan was McGuire, not the players. As pete says, we have lacked a top coach for a fee years, I'm still not convinced brown is a top coach

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:08 pm  

SomersetSaint wrote:

You could equally say the same about wigoon, if you supported them, who would you keep? Tomkins. Who else? Difficult to pick any standout players that you would bust a gut to save, but as a team they are far better than the sum of their individual abilities. The most important person at Wigan was McGuire, not the players. As pete says, we have lacked a top coach for a fee years, I'm still not convinced brown is a top coach

Currently Tomkins, Charnley, Thornley, Smith, Leuluai, Finch, Lima, Prescott, Hansen, O' Loughlin. They are going to get weaker, as the whole of SL is, but they've got Tomkins. If we had him at fullback we probably wouldn't have all these threads as he'd improve us drastically.

Their players, whilst not world beaters, are a lot better physically than ours, stronger and more aggressive. They out enthuse us and are far more aggressive.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:15 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Currently Tomkins, Charnley, Thornley, Smith, Leuluai, Finch, Lima, Prescott, Hansen, O' Loughlin. They are going to get weaker, as the whole of SL is, but they've got Tomkins. If we had him at fullback we probably wouldn't have all these threads as he'd improve us drastically.

Their players, whilst not world beaters, are a lot better physically than ours, stronger and more aggressive. They out enthuse us and are far more aggressive.

Alot of those players where playing under Noble and we would not have given the time of day. Head chopper O'Loughlin was a liability previously. Finch had a very so so first year at Wigan, not really that impressive. Charnley and Tomkins have looked class from day one. But so did Eastmond and Graham, yet the RFL where only happy to change the cap rules come the possible loss of Tomkins, by that time it was too late to save those 2 players. Saying that Wigan have a much better youth system is disingenuous. I'll agree it's a better system from the looks of it today, but 3 years ago it would not have been the case.

Instant long term results are impossible. For mine the only issue I have with Saints would be over the mistake made with Eastmond and the lack of replacing Talau. The Eastmond deal should not have been done after telling Long and Smith to go. Talau should have been replaced or kept on at the club.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:25 pm  

SomersetSaint wrote:

You could equally say the same about wigoon, if you supported them, who would you keep?

Tomkins
Charnley
McIllorum
Mossop
Hansen
Hock
O'Loughlin
Thornley
Prescott

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:43 pm  

Ok, I would take issue with a few of your choices, but you support my point. From the Goons you would keep 9

on_the_charge wrote:

Tomkins
Charnley
McIllorum
Mossop
Hansen
Hock
O'Loughlin
Thornley
Prescott

From Saints you would keep 13

on_the_charge wrote:

Soliola
Lomax
Perry (If he keeps his recent form up)
Roby
McCarthy-Scarsbrook
Puletua
Wilkin
Laffranchi (As a back rower only)
Clough
Magennis
Dixon
Gaskell
Makinson
Foster

There the players I would keep who play for the side regularly week in week out. Youngsters beyond this I cant comment on as I havent seen enough of them to judge.

Now maybe this is tinged with Saints specs, but the fact remains that our squad really is no worse than the Goons, but as a team, they are better by a fair distance. For me therefore, the difference is coaching, fitness, and everything that goes to turn a bunch of journeyman pros into a champion side. Wigan are better at Saints at that part of the club, and we need to recognise thqat the days of having an all star team are past, now we have to do the best with the players we have available.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:01 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

Wellens has played 20 games, Hodgson has played 14, yet Wellens has scored almost 3 x as many tries as Hodgson, not far from 3 x as many tackle busts, 3 x as many clean breaks, his average gain with the ball per game is much higher and Wello has made 3 less errors than him...therefore the analysis represents Wellens to have played about 25% more games than Hodgson, yet a lot of his statistics are well over 50% better than Hodgson has managed...and apparently Hodgson is worth a 2 year deal yet Wello doesnt deserve anything??

2 props available last season, but we chose to go for Laffranchi who for the majority of the year has been our best forward...Lynch and Hill have got more size to them and are out and out props, but Laffranchi has done a very good job for us

Ok then...who? Who is available currently as a prop, stand off, full back or anything else that would be a realistic target for us to sign
and is better than what we currently have?

I had this same argument early in the year when insane saints have made a massive mistake in signing Laffranchi who's a backrow to replace jammer.

I listed about 6 props that was off contract and moved clubs and the was (off the top of my head) about 15 props that joined other clubs.

Can't remember them a but off the top of my head - griffin, hill, Lauaki, gill dudson, Ben flower, Brent kite, Jason king, Andy lynch (went for fee), Bryce Gibbs.

The bulls signed at least one prop, London signed two props and can't be bothered thinking of others but the was 100% props avsilabke.