Re: Manchester Massacre : Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:15 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Where have I said, or even suggested, that?

I said in a key position, you're comparing wing and utility to stand off as a key position?

I would think scrum half is a key position. Lomax only played bit parts in all positions in Potters last year so I would consider last season his full debut season same as Gaskell. Lomax winning young player of the year would seem to indicate I'm not the only one who thinks this.

P.S.

Paul Wellens
Kieron Cunningham
Kyle Eastmond
James Roby

That's a few to get started with.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:51 am  

Top Saint wrote: I would think scrum half is a key position. Lomax only played bit parts in all positions in Potters last year so I would consider last season his full debut season same as Gaskell. Lomax winning young player of the year would seem to indicate I'm not the only one who thinks this. P.S. Paul Wellens Kieron Cunningham Kyle Eastmond James Roby That's a few to get started with. His debut was in 2009, he made 8 appearances. 2010 he made 18 appearances. How you can say last year was his full debut when he has been playing 2 season before is a bit of a stretch. Also this drip drip into the team is exactly the kind of thing a player should get and what Gaskell missed out on. From memory Cunningham was like gaskell in that he came straight in. But you can find all the info on the heritage site http://www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10

Top Saint wrote: I would think scrum half is a key position. Lomax only played bit parts in all positions in Potters last year so I would consider last season his full debut season same as Gaskell. Lomax winning young player of the year would seem to indicate I'm not the only one who thinks this. P.S. Paul Wellens Kieron Cunningham Kyle Eastmond James Roby That's a few to get started with. His debut was in 2009, he made 8 appearances. 2010 he made 18 appearances. How you can say last year was his full debut when he has been playing 2 season before is a bit of a stretch. Also this drip drip into the team is exactly the kind of thing a player should get and what Gaskell missed out on. From memory Cunningham was like gaskell in that he came straight in. But you can find all the info on the heritage site http://www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/ ... page_id=10

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:20 am  

Top Saint wrote:

I would think scrum half is a key position. Lomax only played bit parts in all positions in Potters last year so I would consider last season his full debut season same as Gaskell. Lomax winning young player of the year would seem to indicate I'm not the only one who thinks this.

P.S.

Paul Wellens
Kieron Cunningham
Kyle Eastmond
James Roby

That's a few to get started with.

So you'll ignore his actual debut season, and the following one, and the fact that he hardly played scrum half in those years, nice one. Lomax winning young player of the year means nothing in this discussion.

Eastmond's first games were at full back, in Roby's first seasons he was the interchange hooker. Wellens was hardly impressive until he moved to full back.

I'll agree with Cunningham, but note that you have to name a player that debuted over a decade ago and has now retired to find a comparable player. I thought you'd have been able to name loads considering he was so average last year...

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:29 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

So you'll ignore his actual debut season, and the following one, and the fact that he hardly played scrum half in those years, nice one. Lomax winning young player of the year means nothing in this discussion.

Eastmond's first games were at full back, in Roby's first seasons he was the interchange hooker. Wellens was hardly impressive until he moved to full back.

I'll agree with Cunningham, but note that you have to name a player that debuted over a decade ago and has now retired to find a comparable player. I thought you'd have been able to name loads considering he was so average last year...

I am only comparing their first full seasons because you cannot compare a player playing 8 games away from his natural position to another who débuts, due to circumstance, in his natural position for almost a full season.

I was not ignoring those games, but putting them aside due to giving a bad comparison.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:42 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

I am only comparing their first full seasons because you cannot compare a player playing 8 games away from his natural position to another who débuts, due to circumstance, in his natural position for almost a full season.

I was not ignoring those games, but putting them aside due to giving a bad comparison.

But that's the whole point (and half backs making early appearances in other positions is hardly a new phenomenon).

Lomax was in his third season of being in and around the first team last year, that's two extra years of training with the first team, getting used to the pace and intensity of SL compared to the U21s. Gaskell had had a taste with a couple of appearances the year before, but was thrown in at the deep end, and by the end of the season, wasn't looking out of place. He didn't have the luxury of time that Lomax had, yet played more of a role in directing the team than Lomax did (and interestingly scored more tries which surprised me and only had one less try assist in 3 less games).

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:52 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

But that's the whole point (and half backs making early appearances in other positions is hardly a new phenomenon).

Lomax was in his third season of being in and around the first team last year, that's two extra years of training with the first team, getting used to the pace and intensity of SL compared to the U21s. Gaskell had had a taste with a couple of appearances the year before, but was thrown in at the deep end, and by the end of the season, wasn't looking out of place. He didn't have the luxury of time that Lomax had, yet played more of a role in directing the team than Lomax did (and interestingly scored more tries which surprised me and only had one less try assist in 3 less games).

It's alright to say he was in and around the first team, but he didn't play in the halves. So he was introduced to playing half back at super league level at exactly the same time as Gaskell. This is the reason I believe it is only fair to make the comparison this way. I accept that Lomax had more time around the first team squad to adjust to the pressures of the super league, but he was never expected to control a game at such a young age. By the way I accept that, barring injuries, neither would Gaskell have been either.

My only point on the matter is to compare like with like. Both playing their first full seasons in their current positions ( I say current because Lomax is a stand-off) in which Lomax was considered the better player at the Man of Steel Awards.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:12 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

It's alright to say he was in and around the first team, but he didn't play in the halves. So he was introduced to playing half back at super league level at exactly the same time as Gaskell. This is the reason I believe it is only fair to make the comparison this way. I accept that Lomax had more time around the first team squad to adjust to the pressures of the super league, but he was never expected to control a game at such a young age. By the way I accept that, barring injuries, neither would Gaskell have been either.

My only point on the matter is to compare like with like. Both playing their first full seasons in their current positions ( I say current because Lomax is a stand-off) in which Lomax was considered the better player at the Man of Steel Awards.

I don't think you can disregard 12 months more experience of SL in the matter though, the U21s league is so far removed it's like a different game.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:30 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

I don't think you can disregard 12 months more experience of SL in the matter though, the U21s league is so far removed it's like a different game.

I don't mean to disregard it but you cannot have any type of fair comparison without levelling the playing field a bit. All my comparisons, with regard to Wellens, Roby and Eastmond, were all given allowing for the players to be in the positions they played in regularly for an extended period. Gaskell was given a chance, due to injury, that very few young players ever receive. I think he did OK but I remain to be convinced of his long term suitability in the stand-off role. He may prove me either right or wrong in the long term. That remains to be seen.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:42 pm  

How can you compare an established, fully developed (physically and mentally) player with a rookie who has the body of a kid (and still does, BTW)?

Stupid idea.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:03 am  

I think we are going around in circles a bit. I'm not going to close the thread as everyone has been very civil and kept in line. But in the end Top Saint does not rate Gaskell and no matter how hard you argue with someone, they have their point of view and with Gaskell not likely to get a game this year, there is no way they are going to be able to change their mind as there are no more practical experiences to do this.


I think Gaskell had a storming first season. I understand Lomax getting young player of the year, but peoples eyes are always drawn to those who have that short burst of speed. But who put Lomax into those gaps last year would be my arguement for that and also Jamie Foster was also nominated in those awards last year, so not sure about the process as Foster was starting to drop off in form, from midway through last year.

Anyway, it could be that if Gaskell does come back or go to Wigan he will blow top Saint away, or come back and have a few mares and we will wonder where the magic went. But until he does come back, it's an academic arguement where no one can discuss the merits of his current game, just games from this year and last year.