Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:35 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Pragmatic base on what????

Experience. We can safely assume Saints will either improve, level off or nosedive from herein. If we improve - great (although what happens if Brown's fortunes take a nosedive and we win the GF under Cunningham? We'd suddenly be in the lunatic position of giving Keiron the boot and bringing in a coach who has achieved less). If we level off - we bring in Brown, no problem. Which leaves a nosedive - and given the weak state of our backs, improvements made by other SL teams and an inexperienced coaching staff this is a very real possibility.

Constructing "what if" scenarios for outcomes which are possible is hardly negative thinking. Provided outcomes aren't ridiculously improbable it is absolutely the pragmatic outlook to consider such.

We have lost one game to wigan.. So

We have lost several games this season. The same inadequacies that lead to earlier defeats played a (perhaps even - the) significant role in the Wigan defeat. To think otherwise is delusional.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:36 pm  

Surely that's just a straight foreward ban

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:42 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Experience. We can safely assume Saints will either improve, level off or nosedive from herein. If we improve - great (although what happens if Brown's fortunes take a nosedive and we win the GF under Cunningham? We'd suddenly be in the lunatic position of giving Keiron the boot and bringing in a coach who has achieved less). If we level off - we bring in Brown, no problem. Which leaves a nosedive - and given the weak state of our backs, improvements made by other SL teams and an inexperienced coaching staff this is a very real possibility.

Constructing "what if" scenarios for outcomes which are possible is hardly negative thinking. Provided outcomes aren't ridiculously improbable it is absolutely the pragmatic outlook to consider such.

We have lost several games this season. The same inadequacies that lead to earlier defeats played a (perhaps even - the) significant role in the Wigan defeat. To think otherwise is delusional.

Ah now that's a slightly different outlook to the original OP.

Yes we need to think about the future, but the crash is far from the most likely option, and the OP did not mention the other options you have mentioned above.

I would say most likely is a bouncing along with good performances, mixed in with the occasional loss.
Given what I have seen so far this year and in the last few weeks. I would say CC final and a top 4 finish. But like I say hard to judge with the current team only having had 3 games.


I'd be happy with that as a turn around. The next wigan game will be as tough to predict as this one. Derbies tend to be difficult to predict, hence why the youth of Wigan have done the dirty on us before when we where expected to win.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:47 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Ah now that's a slightly different outlook to the original OP.

Yes we need to think about the future, but the crash is far from the most likely option, and the OP did not mention the other options you have mentioned above.

I would say most likely is a bouncing along with good performances, mixed in with the occasional loss.
Given what I have seen so far this year and in the last few weeks. I would say CC final and a top 4 finish. But like I say hard to judge with the current team only having had 3 games.

I'm not arsed about what you think is the most likely outcome. I'm asking you what happens if performances crash under the current management.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:26 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

We were just the same against Wigan as we were against Hull and Bradford, only against Hull and Bradford our defence was better.

Those performances against Bradford and Hull were as poor as I have seen. Agains Wigan, we were clearly second best; but Wigan were very good. Do you feel the performances of Hull and Bradford were at that level?

There was simply no hint of the Leeds / Wire performances occuring under Simmons. He'd lost his way, and so had the team, whether it was poor coaching, a lost dressing room or whatever. We also saw nothing close to that type of performance the previous season, even when he did turn it around, so the odds are extremely long that we'd have played like that had Simmons still been here.

I understand you having your reservations over the Simmons sacking, but you shouldn't be so keen to write off some of the most scintilating rugby league we have played for years.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:59 am  

Cragganmore Kid wrote:

Those performances against Bradford and Hull were as poor as I have seen. Agains Wigan, we were clearly second best; but Wigan were very good. Do you feel the performances of Hull and Bradford were at that level?

I didn't see much difference between Wigan and the Hull/Bradford games, except that Robes and Lomax were available for the Wigan game whereas either or both were missing for the previous two - something that had a massive impact on our structure - and the performances at Bradford and Hull were undermined by individual errors, particularly by Gaskell and Foster (not blaming them; just stating a fact). From all reports, we were as dire at Cas as we were at Bradford and Hull but I didn't go to Cas so I cannot speak from firsthand experience. However, at Cas it would appear we showed what I have come to call the spirit of 2011 - we fought hard for the win as a team against the odds. That spirit grew in us as the season progressed last year and we were forever under the kosh with injuries and off field issues.

There was simply no hint of the Leeds / Wire performances occuring under Simmons.

Well, we will have to agree to differ. I remember clearly just how dire we were last year against the Quins - and we hadn't been exactly storming before then - and how the crowd booed the team off, etc, etc. Just the same thing. We turned it around at Leeds - surprise, surprise (we seem to beat Leeds almost as a matter of course during the league these days) and although we had losses and the odd indifferent game after that, we gradually improved and we put in some great performances. Contrast this year's Good Friday derby with last year's and I think you'll find that last year's, under Royce, was 100% better than this year's! Of course we can then contrast our next performance against Wigan with our hiding (if not in points then in performance) against Wigan at Widnes but we didn't have a team chock full of experienced players at that point either yet only lost by a converted try if memory serves?

He'd lost his way, and so had the team, whether it was poor coaching, a lost dressing room or whatever.

The more I hear of senior players' whining - Josh Perry of all people in this week's trade press - the more convinced I become that certain senior players had bruised egos because Royce wouldn't play them automatically. Josh Perry complaining about not being picked. Good grief. He needs to start setting the world alight before he starts complaining about not being picked. Either way, being without an experienced coach AND having a team that is clearly not performing fills me with no confidence whatsoever. Having an experienced coach - especially one who has already gone through a season of putting together a team made up of u20s players and getting us to the GF in spite of - would at least bring me hope.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:13 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

I didn't see much difference between Wigan and the Hull/Bradford games, except that Robes and Lomax were available for the Wigan game whereas either or both were missing for the previous two - something that had a massive impact on our structure - and the performances at Bradford and Hull were undermined by individual errors, particularly by Gaskell and Foster (not blaming them; just stating a fact). From all reports, we were as dire at Cas as we were at Bradford and Hull but I didn't go to Cas so I cannot speak from firsthand experience. However, at Cas it would appear we showed what I have come to call the spirit of 2011 - we fought hard for the win as a team against the odds. That spirit grew in us as the season progressed last year and we were forever under the kosh with injuries and off field issues.

Well, we will have to agree to differ. I remember clearly just how dire we were last year against the Quins - and we hadn't been exactly storming before then - and how the crowd booed the team off, etc, etc. Just the same thing. We turned it around at Leeds - surprise, surprise (we seem to beat Leeds almost as a matter of course during the league these days) and although we had losses and the odd indifferent game after that, we gradually improved and we put in some great performances. Contrast this year's Good Friday derby with last year's and I think you'll find that last year's, under Royce, was 100% better than this year's! Of course we can then contrast our next performance against Wigan with our hiding (if not in points then in performance) against Wigan at Widnes but we didn't have a team chock full of experienced players at that point either yet only lost by a converted try if memory serves?

The more I hear of senior players' whining - Josh Perry of all people in this week's trade press - the more convinced I become that certain senior players had bruised egos because Royce wouldn't play them automatically. Josh Perry complaining about not being picked. Good grief. He needs to start setting the world alight before he starts complaining about not being picked. Either way, being without an experienced coach AND having a team that is clearly not performing fills me with no confidence whatsoever. Having an experienced coach - especially one who has already gone through a season of putting together a team made up of u20s players and getting us to the GF in spite of - would at least bring me hope.

I can't rank the Hull and Bradford performances alongside the Wigan defeat, simply because of the performance of the opposition on each occasion. Hull and Bradford offered little, we were abysmal. Wigan however put in a great performance; steely defence, good options in attack, dominant forward play (see the amount of waxing lyrical that their fans are currently engaging in), we weren't up to it (although, had we scored off the set on the back of the penalty on their line at 10-12 who knows? While second best, it would have put us right back in the game).

While the results may have improved last year, you won't be able to point me to a performance where we produced the exciting rugby league we played under Rush / KC. I don't, for one minute, believe we've unearthed the next Wayne Bennet or that the performances shown against Leeds / Wire will become the norm. I think we will have a real up and down season but I simply can't see any likelihood based on Simmons' entire career with Saints that we'd have turned up and played so well in the Leeds and Wire games.

I do agree that the players have to stand up and be counted, though, whoever is the coach. However, Simmons selection choices were baffling at times; perservering with Gaskell and Foster, when the world could see their confidence was simply shot to pieces and getting worse, omitting Dixon when in the form of his life (admittedly, his exclusion under Rush/KC baffled me, but with hindsight can't argue with the contribution from Flannery).

From my point of view, 3 victories from 4 games is something that looked like a pipe dream coming away from Odsal, as was the brand of RL played in those first 2 games. I don't see we've gone backwards in any way, shape or form.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:35 pm  

McClennan wrote:

What is the Russians drop a nuclear bomb on St Helens. Is Langtree Park insured?

Not sure, but if it happened in Wigan though it would cause hundreds of pounds worth of damage.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:44 pm  

Cragganmore Kid wrote:

I can't rank the Hull and Bradford performances alongside the Wigan defeat, simply because of the performance of the opposition on each occasion. Hull and Bradford offered little, we were abysmal. Wigan however put in a great performance; steely defence, good options in attack, dominant forward play (see the amount of waxing lyrical that their fans are currently engaging in), we weren't up to it (although, had we scored off the set on the back of the penalty on their line at 10-12 who knows? While second best, it would have put us right back in the game).

This is pretty much how I feel. Wigan really gave it to us in an impressive manner accross the park.
I don't buy the fact that Leeds and Warrington gave us the games against them and I don't buy the idea that we could have won 2 out of the last 3 games with Royce in charge.
Whilst last year we did improve as the season went on, its not like we beat Leeds and everything was rosey. Wigan beat us at the Stobart in a far more convincing manner than last friday and I specifically remember, as we were struggling to string a set of 5 tackles together, the away end chanting "You're so poop its unbelievable" and me thinking "Jeez, they're right".
As long as we stay in the play off places the board won't move against the temps. If we go lower than that that then maybe someone will come in to steady the ship.

I'm fairly confident that making the playoffs won't be a problem. I reckon there will come a moment when the inexperienced KC and Rush will run out of things in their locker, but hopefully that will be a bit further down the line. I guess the next two fixtures against Widnes will go someway as to telling us whether we can be confident of picking up points in the more modest fixtures.

Re: What happens if performances crash this year? : Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:57 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

I'm fairly confident that making the playoffs won't be a problem. I reckon there will come a moment when the inexperienced KC and Rush will run out of things in their locker, but hopefully that will be a bit further down the line. I guess the next two fixtures against Widnes will go someway as to telling us whether we can be confident of picking up points in the more modest fixtures.

I agree with this; however, they now have to deal with injuries to four key first team players (three, if you discount Wheeler as key on the basis of him still finding his position / struggling to stay fit), including our 1st choice half back.

Injuries were put forward, and largely accepted, as a reason for our substandard performances for most of last season. I hope the same latitude is given to the temp set up if we find life a little tough with Lomax, Wheeler, TP and Gardner out.