Re: Shenton : Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:50 pm  

Carlos Alberto wrote:

It also doesn't help that for the majority of last season we were playing an untried half back combination, either due to their age and experience with the first team, or through injury meaning new combinations were thrown together.

Finally, once Lomaskell had settled and we're going well, Shenton started going well too. Sadly we all know what happened in the Grand Final, and for me, this has set him back another 2 or 3 steps.

He has come back this season into a team struggling for form, and now it looks as if we're going to be playing with YET ANOTHER makeshift halfback combination, which will undoubtedly offer no help to Shenton whatsoever.

This.

Re: Shenton : Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:23 pm  

Like I said a little early to be calling time on him, but it's also true that to say that he is not in the same class as Big Mal or Gleeson when he played for Saints, from his current showing. But the standard of centre in GB has just fallen off a cliff over the years. Hence why Saints have been overseas for centres during the latter part of the SL era, or filling in with 2nd rowers and the like.

Newlove, Gibbs, Iro, Hoppe, Gleeson, Lyon, Talau, Gidley, Flannery, Gilmore, Meli, Shenton,

Re: Shenton : Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:58 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Bollox.

Quite right, because Meninga would have been able to use his powers of telekinesis to make sure the ball came out to his wing instead of constantly up the middle or to the left instead as actually happened all last year, wouldn't he?

Mugwump wrote:

Nonsense. Even if we agree he's been starved of possession there's nothing to stop him looking for the ball. You see - that's what good players do.

But he's recovering from a serious injury.... He isn't yet capable of doing "what good players do".... Because he's recovering from an injury....

Mugwump wrote:

It's true that he is recovering from a serious injury. But he's also had plenty of time to show something in a Saints shirt. So far he's shown nowhere near as much as Gleeson did.

Last season he was settling into a new team in a new town and never got the ball. This season HE'S BEEN RECOVERING FROM A SERIOUS INJURY!!!!!!! HE HAS HAD NO CHANCE TO SHOW WHAT HE CAN DO PROPERLY IN A SAINTS SHIRT YET!!!!!!! Dear God all bleedin' mighty......

And of course he's not as good as Gleeson. No centre in the British game now is even remotely as good as Gleeson was as the game is at an all-time low for 3/4 talent. The comparison is stupid and meaningless - just the same as saying that Gleeson wasn't in the same class as Newlove or Connolly in their prime would have been 10 years ago. And Gleeson played for a great team that put the ball through his hands a lot, making it even more stupid and meaningless.

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:01 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Quite right, because Meninga would have been able to use his powers of telekinesis to make sure the ball came out to his wing instead of constantly up the middle or to the left instead as actually happened all last year, wouldn't he?

Meninga wouldn't hang about in the centre position meekly waiting for the ball like some school kid at the back of the class tentatively raising his hand to answer a question. He would DEMAND the ball. And if it didn't come to him he'd bloody well rectify the problem.

But he's recovering from a serious injury.... He isn't yet capable of doing "what good players do".... Because he's recovering from an injury....

He wasn't recovering from a serious injury BEFORE he sustained it.

Last season he was settling into a new team in a new town and never got the ball. This season HE'S BEEN RECOVERING FROM A SERIOUS INJURY!!!!!!! HE HAS HAD NO CHANCE TO SHOW WHAT HE CAN DO PROPERLY IN A SAINTS SHIRT YET!!!!!!! Dear God all bleedin' mighty......

And of course he's not as good as Gleeson. No centre in the British game now is even remotely as good as Gleeson was as the game is at an all-time low for 3/4 talent. The comparison is stupid and meaningless - just the same as saying that Gleeson wasn't in the same class as Newlove or Connolly in their prime would have been 10 years ago. And Gleeson played for a great team that put the ball through his hands a lot, making it even more stupid and meaningless.

Revisionist nonsense. I remember the Gleeson signing very well. I remember standing with PONNER and other Huddersfield fans at Knowsley Road discussing the transfer and them being somewhat bemused by the affair as Gleeson, whilst showing some good form at Huddersfield, hadn't achieved anywhere near as much as Shenton at Castleford when he was signed. Shenton had a somewhat indifferent final season but prior to that he'd weighed in with plenty of tries and demonstrated a fair bit of skill.

Gleeson developed under Millward's tutelage. He went from flashes of good play (such as his first game away at Warrington where he demonstrated a couple of excellent sidesteps) to a fully-rounded centre. And he developed quickly. And let's remember that Millward did not favour an expansive game. Under him we shifted from being a team that liked to use the full width of the pitch to one that targeted the ruck area. The evidence is there for all to see. Prior to Millward our leading try scorers (not to mention our most dangerous players) were the likes of Newlove, Hunte, Sullivan etc. When Millward arrived we suddenly began to emphasise quick play the balls, dummy-half dashes again and again and again. Yes, Sullivan & Newlove did get the ball - but the cutting edge of our attack was at scrum half, stand-off, hooker and loose forward. Our top try-scorers were the likes of Long, Martyn, Cunningham and Sculthorpe.

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:03 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Meninga wouldn't hang about in the centre position meekly waiting for the ball like some school kid at the back of the class tentatively raising his hand to answer a question. He would DEMAND the ball. And if it didn't come to him he'd bloody well rectify the problem.

No centre, playing to the kind of conservative, rigid system Royce employed, getting the kind of ball Gleeson got last year, could have looked good going forward. None. Maybe he should have ignored all instructions, come off his wing and chimed into the line at #6 instead and snatched the ball out of Lomaskell's hands to keep you happy?

Mugwump wrote:

He wasn't recovering from a serious injury BEFORE he sustained it.

WTF????? He had no ball before the injury. He's been injured ever since it. Kind of by definition of what an injury is..... Huh?????

Mugwump wrote:

Revisionist nonsense. I remember the Gleeson signing very well. I remember standing with PONNER and other Huddersfield fans at Knowsley Road discussing the transfer and them being somewhat bemused by the affair as Gleeson, whilst showing some good form at Huddersfield, hadn't achieved anywhere near as much as Shenton at Castleford when he was signed. Shenton had a somewhat indifferent final season but prior to that he'd weighed in with plenty of tries and demonstrated a fair bit of skill.

Gleeson developed under Millward's tutelage. He went from flashes of good play (such as his first game away at Warrington where he demonstrated a couple of excellent sidesteps) to a fully-rounded centre. And he developed quickly. And let's remember that Millward did not favour an expansive game. Under him we shifted from being a team that liked to use the full width of the pitch to one that targeted the ruck area. The evidence is there for all to see. Prior to Millward our leading try scorers (not to mention our most dangerous players) were the likes of Newlove, Hunte, Sullivan etc. When Millward arrived we suddenly began to emphasise quick play the balls, dummy-half dashes again and again and again. Yes, Sullivan & Newlove did get the ball - but the cutting edge of our attack was at scrum half, stand-off, hooker and loose forward. Our top try-scorers were the likes of Long, Martyn, Cunningham and Sculthorpe.

Long story short - Gleeson arrived as a second rate but best available replacement for Iro and developed into a top player over the course of a couple of seasons. Sound familiar to you at all?

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:09 am  

I think it's pretty harsh to try and compare shenton to big mal and Martin gleeson. Big mal is one of the greatest players ever lived and Martin gleeson for all his flaws was world class at saints.

Shenton is just a average player, he's not a strike centre and he's not the best defensively, if we could replace then I would buy I can't see how we will replace him.

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:40 am  

The comparison to Gleeson is flawed.

Gleeson came raw , cheap and largely unknown from a relegated side.

Shenton came as a test centre on a lot of coin after Saints outbid Leeds and the Pies.

Gleeson flourished Shenton has stagnated and that is being generous.

I thought Shenton was a great signing at the time. I was wrong.

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:03 am  

Carlos Alberto wrote:

It also doesn't help that for the majority of last season we were playing an untried half back combination, either due to their age and experience with the first team, or through injury meaning new combinations were thrown together.

Finally, once Lomaskell had settled and we're going well, Shenton started going well too. Sadly we all know what happened in the Grand Final, and for me, this has set him back another 2 or 3 steps.

He has come back this season into a team struggling for form, and now it looks as if we're going to be playing with YET ANOTHER makeshift halfback combination, which will undoubtedly offer no help to Shenton whatsoever.

THIS....plus.....

When he came to us he had had a good test series under his belt (the one where he was knocked out at Elland Road). He never looked sensational, but he was consistent and offered a bit in both attack and defence.

Am willing to give him this season to get back to where he was at Grand Final time last year.

Was a little concerned on Friday that when he chased (????) for the sin binning moment, as the pie gobbler kicked the ball, Shenton slowed down then once the attacker had got past Makinson, started to run again. Surely if he'd have kept on at full pace, it'd have put him a yard or two up on the attacker and not resulted in him floundering and as a result having little option but to impede him.

Regarding Gleeson, not sure he was moulded and improved as considerably as some are making out by Saints. He looked a pretty good player when at Hudds although there's no doubt he did improve....likely something (but not exclusively) to do with enjoying his time here and the quality of the team and play around him.

Also, Jones looks good but come on people give him a couple of seasons to get going!!!!!!!

We've got Shenton, we should support him.....until October 2013 at least!

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:48 am  

wertyuio wrote:

We've got Shenton, we should support him.....until October 2013 at least!

Spot on

Re: Shenton : Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:47 am  

Shentons stats from Friday
8 tackles
6 missed tackles
4 carries
21 metres

Wigan made 11 clean breaks
Saints made 1.