Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:22 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Some people need to learn their RL history. I'm sure others have said this on here but RL has pretty much always decided its champions via a play-off system barring a 20 year period when we didn't.

What is this obsession that some people have that our sport must follow what football does? It's ludicrous. Our sport is a far better spectacle and more suited to one off clashes than football. In football you can play for a draw, nick and goal and win without being the better side. In RL it is exceptional hard to follow the same pattern. You can play conservatively yes but you still have to score points whereas in football you play that kind of destructive game (which reared its head in this year's RU world cup). In league you either win or you lose. Draws are rare. Stop comparing us with football and trying to use football logic to determine our game. We are not football and we should not treat it as such.

Agree.
I remember Wigan winning the Championship in 1960 v Wakefield at Odsal with over 83,000 fans in attendance after finishing fourth in the table and then losing to Huddersfield in 1962 in the first round top four play off game despite finishing top.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:28 pm  

McClennan wrote:

You could just as easily say that if you lose four games at the start of the season then your season is over and every game afterwards becomes irrelevant under a league system. What chance do Aston Villa, Everton and QPR have now of winning the league? Football is fortunate in that it has UEFA places and cups to play for but if they didn't (and RL doesn't have that format) what would each week mean? A battle to avoid relegation if you're near the bottom otherwise it's a battle for prize money which RL has with a play off system anyway.

Aston Villa, Everton et al are mediocre teams that earn and deserve their mediocrity. And they have a bizarre concept called "relegation" to fight against the whole season...

You want to keep a system that penalises true champion teams by stopping them reaping the rewards of their hard-earned superiority by giving the mediocre waste of space teams an unfair chance of beating them on a single off-day and becoming "champion" teams instead. You want to penalise quality and reward s**t. You want a league of communist drudgery where all the teams will play in grey, nobody will be allowed to score any points and trophies will be just awarded on a rota basis to make everyone the same. You want the sport of RL to perish and die. Well, that's certainly happening so well done to you.

All the current playoff system does is make the league exciting and rewarding for 3 or 4 middle of the table nonentity teams. For the other 10 teams there is no point in them or their fans bothering to turn up at all all season. This is a ridiculously and bafflingly, inexplicably skewed version of the way things should be by any even remotely small degree of logic.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:29 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Some people need to learn their RL history. I'm sure others have said this on here but RL has pretty much always decided its champions via a play-off system barring a 20 year period when we didn't.

What is this obsession that some people have that our sport must follow what football does? It's ludicrous. Our sport is a far better spectacle and more suited to one off clashes than football. In football you can play for a draw, nick and goal and win without being the better side. In RL it is exceptional hard to follow the same pattern. You can play conservatively yes but you still have to score points whereas in football you play that kind of destructive game (which reared its head in this year's RU world cup). In league you either win or you lose. Draws are rare. Stop comparing us with football and trying to use football logic to determine our game. We are not football and we should not treat it as such.

Some people meaning me in particular? Look I neither claim to be a historian of the game, nor do I care to be in future, I appreciate where the game has come from but prefer not to get bogged down by 'tradition' in lieu of my enjoyment of the sport.

That said I have read enough to know that for several years at the start of the game's history (not just the period between 73-97) we used the league and not play-offs to decide a champion. I was well aware of the fact that for a large period of the sport's history there have been end of season play-offs, I was merely pointing out that this hasn't always been the way nor does it need to be for the sport to be successful.

Thankfully ours is a sport that is both aware, proud and protective of its heritage, and yet isn't afraid to change things. This is evidenced by the sport's very inception and a quick read of the history of the game reveals yet more evidence:

1897 - the line-out was abolished.
1898 - professionalism introduced.
1906 - the Northern Union changed its rules, reducing teams from 15 to 13 a side and replacing the scrum formed after every tackle with the play the ball.
1922 - the name "Northern Union" (or "Northern Rugby Football Union" in full) is dropped.
1966 - the International Board introduced the limited tackle rule whereby the attacking team had 3 play-the-balls and on the 4th tackle a scrum was formed.
1967 - the first professional Sunday matches of rugby league played.
1972 - the tackle count was increased to 6 tackles.
1983 - the scrum was replaced by a handover.
1995 - Super League proposals accepted by club chairmen & the last traditional winter season begins.

Frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass about how football decide their winners etc but there will always be comparisons due to several reasons. I have an opinion on how I feel our game should decide it's champions based on what I feel is the fairest method, it has nothing to do with football and I don't expect the RFL or anyone else to listen or make changes based on that.

Those currently in charge at Red Hall, and at 99% of the clubs have made the decision to retain the current format, I can only speculate but I suggest that the driving reason for this is for monetary reasons, rather than sporting ones.

You mentioned that our sport is more suited to one off clashes than football - I agree wholeheartedly and yet our traditional knock-out competition (The Challenge Cup) is sadly becoming increasingly de-valued and suffers from poor attendances (as with the SL play-off rounds) before the final. Now admittedly there are numerous reasons for this including ticket pricing, but the excitement the knock-out rounds is seemingly not enough of a draw for the fans.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:35 pm  

McClennan wrote:

How do you know that?

I don't for a fact, it was an educated guess having been fortunate enough to attend both events on at least one occasion with/and by speaking to neutral fans.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:51 pm  

TS

There are lots of reasons for the drop off in attendances for play off / Cup games.

My view.
I grew up watching the game from the 1950's. The Challenge Cup was THE major competition

Crowds were at record highs.
However (I'll use Wigan as an example) for average attendances of over 20K I would estimate than less than 2K were season ticket holders.i.e 10% It was a pay on the day culture.

Wigan now have something like 10K season ticket holders with average gates of around 16K (over 60%) so they are used to turning up on home match days "for free"

Come Cup and play offs it's alien to them to have to pay on the gate.

I don't know how we sort it out btw

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:56 pm  

Very good point Brian.

Hows your mother now?

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:59 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

TS

There are lots of reasons for the drop off in attendances for play off / Cup games.

My view.
I grew up watching the game from the 1950's. The Challenge Cup was THE major competition

Crowds were at record highs.
However (I'll use Wigan as an example) for average attendances of over 20K I would estimate than less than 2K were season ticket holders.i.e 10% It was a pay on the day culture.

Wigan now have something like 10K season ticket holders with average gates of around 16K (over 60%) so they are used to turning up on home match days "for free"

Come Cup and play offs it's alien to them to have to pay on the gate.

I don't know how we sort it out btw

I agree completely. Many of the people I go to the game with used the same reasoning, other reasons including the 'inevitability' of victory when drawn against teams in the lower leagues, the fact that the game is being shown on terrestrial tv, and simply not having interest in the cup.

I suspect many fans don't realise where the money for cup matches goes ateotd.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 pm  

St pete wrote:

Very good point Brian.

Hows your mother now?

Thank you so much for asking, we can all have "our fun" but it's been a difficult last two months.

She's up to 6st 4lb from 5st 8lb.
We're getting there slowly mate, but it still a big worry for us.


She was shouting for Sam when he scored on Saturday and she had a large brandy afterwards.

Again thank you.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:05 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Thank you so much for asking, we can all have "our fun" but it's been a difficult last two months.

She's up to 6st 4lb from 5st 8lb.
We're getting there slowly mate, but it still a big worry for us.


She was shouting for Sam when he scored on Saturday and she had a large brandy afterwards.

Again thank you.

No worries.

Glad to hear she's doing well.

Re: Play off system stays. : Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:17 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

TS

There are lots of reasons for the drop off in attendances for play off / Cup games.

My view.
I grew up watching the game from the 1950's. The Challenge Cup was THE major competition

Crowds were at record highs.
However (I'll use Wigan as an example) for average attendances of over 20K I would estimate than less than 2K were season ticket holders.i.e 10% It was a pay on the day culture.

Wigan now have something like 10K season ticket holders with average gates of around 16K (over 60%) so they are used to turning up on home match days "for free"

Come Cup and play offs it's alien to them to have to pay on the gate.

I don't know how we sort it out btw

Easy answer in my opinion. Include all home cup games in the price of a season ticket. Already paid for so people will try to attend.