Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:13 pm  

I'm embarrassed at the pettiness of some of my fellow Saints fans.

As far as i'm concerned Saints have done well to get a B grade.
It shows that we are doing a lot of things right.

Saints themselves have said the time to truly judge them is once they are settled into the new stadium.

Therefore lets look forward to the next 3 year license period when hopefully we will have done enough to earn ourselves an A grade.

My own personal opinion why we never got an A is that its related to the following.

1. Community programme perhaps historically not as strong as other clubs. I think Saints have started to take this onboard, as ive noticed that in the programmes this year, they have a page or two devoted to their efforts to promote the club around Merseyside.

2. Low level of season ticket Sales. I believe we sold more season tickets this year at Widnes than in previous years. Now considering we only have about 5-6k season ticket holders now, then we may have dipped below the 5k level in recent seasons.

3. sub 9k gates at Widnes. While gates have been better than many fans were predicting. They are still about 20% lower than at KR. IMO it may be a tough ask in the depths of a recession getting the lost fans back. Many i fear will have found other interests to spend their dwindling leisure money on.

4. No stadium of our own, being forced to rent short term a ground out of our town.

[Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy]

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:14 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

(a) They did. See the summing up in League Express this week of what the RFL said last time around.
(b) It most definitely has materialised. Unless that stadium with grass growing on its pitch is the stadium for another team.
(c) The two above suggest you were just guessing.

You need to read it again then. You get graded on current facilities not on something that might be finished in the future. If you think that your new ground has materialised you need to go and consider how long it has taken Halifax to finish their main stand. Just because you start building something doesn't mean you are going to finish it - you can't play a game on it for a number of months yet unless you don't want any fans in attendance.

[Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy]

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:20 pm  

saint at wire wrote:

True.
Although a substantial ongoing support of the Lenagan family is mentioned in the accounts to see wigan through 2010/11 season.
it also says that additional loans from the family are necessary so the chances are he will re-structure the debt owed to his family.

However, this does not solve/disguise the ongoing trading losses of wigan even with your high support levels; whereas we can grow to reach profitability which = sustainability.

How can wigan trade their way out of continuing losses when you are going full pelt and having to borrow more and more from its owner?

Lenegan was always going having to restructure the club's finances after the way Mo and Whelan ran it, hence the £2m loan you mentioned earlier (which was actually a loan from Whelan). We were due to turn a profit last year according to Lenegan at a fans forum and are now on the way to being sustainable going forward.

I do not have the detail of St Helens financial so can't comment, you clearly don't know Wigan's so it's best not to speculate.

[Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy]

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:22 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

I'm embarrassed at the pettiness of some of my fellow Saints fans.

As far as i'm concerned Saints have done well to get a B grade.
It shows that we are doing a lot of things right.

Saints themselves have said the time to truly judge them is once they are settled into the new stadium.

Therefore lets look forward to the next 3 year license period when hopefully we will have done enough to earn ourselves an A grade.

My own personal opinion why we never got an A is that its related to the following.

1. Community programme perhaps historically not as strong as other clubs. I think Saints have started to take this onboard, as ive noticed that in the programmes this year, they have a page or two devoted to their efforts to promote the club around Merseyside.

2. Low level of season ticket Sales. I believe we sold more season tickets this year at Widnes than in previous years. Now considering we only have about 5-6k season ticket holders now, then we may have dipped below the 5k level in recent seasons.

3. sub 9k gates at Widnes. While gates have been better than many fans were predicting. They are still about 20% lower than at KR. IMO it may be a tough ask in the depths of a recession getting the lost fans back. Many i fear will have found other interests to spend their dwindling leisure money on.

4. No stadium of our own, being forced to rent short term a ground out of our town.

This year's attendance don't count as the bid was done earlier in the season. It will have been the ground as the main issue, so it looks a forgone conclusion it will be an A grade for the club next time.

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:27 pm  

Wigan/Leeds Andy wrote:

You need to read it again then. You get graded on current facilities not on something that might be finished in the future.

You are talking rubbish. We were awarded a Grade B last time as well, and we only had planning permission back then! The only tangible thing that has changed to the negative since last time is our attendance figures. We were averaging 11,500 for I think the final three years of our time at KR. We've fallen below the required 9000 for this season. Of course, you will note that I have inserted the word 'tangible'. Because very few fans will know the true state of the club's finances. So that could be a factor.

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:28 pm  

Wigan/Leeds Andy wrote:

This year's attendance don't count as the bid was done earlier in the season.

According to League Express when it set out the criteria this week it does count but at the lower figure of a 9000 average (the previous two seasons being 10,000 average).

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:30 pm  

I'm Backing Wigan/Leeds Andy to win this one!

Saintsfan will give her all to the extent of ignoring certain facts that don't suit the argument but in the end She will Succumb!

[Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy]

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:34 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

You are talking rubbish. We were awarded a Grade B last time as well, and we only had planning permission back then! The only tangible thing that has changed to the negative since last time is our attendance figures. We were averaging 11,500 for I think the final three years of our time at KR. We've fallen below the required 9000 for this season. Of course, you will note that I have inserted the word 'tangible'. Because very few fans will know the true state of the club's finances. So that could be a factor.

Can I ask what the hell you're talking about?

You got a grade B last time, you got a grade B this time?

Attendance criteria is based on 2008-2010. Your bid was done in March, how can this year's attendances be known then?

Jebus.

[Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy]

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

According to League Express when it set out the criteria this week it does count but at the lower figure of a 9000 average (the previous two seasons being 10,000 average).

- Average weekly home crowds of at least 10,000 in either the 2008, 2009 or 2010 seasons, and an average home crowd of at least 9,000 in the other 2 seasons.

So they're going to base attendance figures on a season that isn't finished yet?

HTH.

Re: St Helens Licence Grade : Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:17 pm  

Wigan/Leeds Andy wrote:

- Average weekly home crowds of at least 10,000 in either the 2008, 2009 or 2010 seasons, and an average home crowd of at least 9,000 in the other 2 seasons.
So they're going to base attendance figures on a season that isn't finished yet?
HTH.

I quote (League Express citing the RFL criteria):

1 Commercial, Marketing, Media and Community.
An A Grade club will have had a commercial income of at least £1 million in 2009 and 2010; its average crowd will be at least 10,000 in two of the last three seasons, with at least 9,000 in the other season; it will have at least 5,000 season ticket holders; and it will have engaged at least 10,000 people with its community activities.

Now, tell me, where in there does it say 2008, 2009 and 2010? The next licence is awarded from 2012 to 2014. 2011 is part of the first licence round, which began in 2009. Why would any season outside of this licence round be used to calculate whether a club is viable for the next licence round? We could go back decades if that were the case surely.

You were saying?