Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:26 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Their attack tonight, and most nights I've seen them, is utterly rubbish. They are however an amazing collective unit, one that looks like it could defend until October and still not concede enough to win a game against them.

Although the defence is fantastic, and you're correct in the point about them being a team, I disagree about the attack.
I too, tomkins aside, don't think they have particulary dangerous individuals, but we know how well they can move the ball how wide, quickly to find space for the centres, part of that is obviously working hard on skills and passing, but its effect is also aided by the consistant threat of forward coming back towards the PTB looking for the short pass, sometimes they take it and it always takes a decent tackle to stop the runner.

Compare it to our set up, when the ball goes behind the first runner to our half back, the defence is never fooled into thinking the dummy runners going to get it, probably because they're walking. The was a point in the QUins game when flannery was the first (dummy) runner and when the ball actually went to him he looked completely suprised and almost dropped it.

In a salary capped game, of course the coach is always going to be the major key, and Wigan appear to have the best about at the moment. Anyone who can play Amos Roberts full-back and still get his team to win is obviously talented. We have to get the whole team working in both attack and defence, and then we'll see our talent start having affect. I'm 99% sure that our squad coached by a mcguire clone would be able to out perform wigan. Here's hoping that Royce's slow start is mearly the affect of trying a complete clean slate and things are still falling into place.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:37 am  

St pete wrote:

The young lads at Wigan look like they going to keep Wigan a top side for years to come. Charnley IMO will be England centre in the next few years. His loan spell at hull KR and from what I've seen of him back at Wigan I think this lad will be class.

I couldn't help but think how much better wigans young lads are better than ours. Wheeler and lomax IMO ain't going to be half the players charnley and marsh will be. I also had the same feeling watching warringtons young lads last week.

Maybe we've just hyped up the likes of wheeler and lomax because I don't think they are half the players other clubs are producing.

I can't help wonder you're reasoning here. For a start, Charnley was playing on the wing and Marsh the centre. If Wheeler could string more than single appearences together, I'm pretty sure he'd be out performing them easily and Lomax appears to be turning into a very competant SL player with good potential beyond that.
If you were to say that you thought Mossop and Farrell where better than Ashurst and Dixon, I'd start listening, although I'd raise you Cloughy and note that I think there's subtle age differences.

Beyond that, its ALOT easier for young lads to come in when the firt team is in tip top order like it currently is at Wigan. Besides, if a youngster had given a performance to the level of Marsh did, but in a Saints shirt, we'd be getting barracked by Saddened about how he was just a space filler.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:50 am  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Beyond that, its ALOT easier for young lads to come in when the firt team is in tip top order like it currently is at Wigan.

James Graham and James Roby are proof of this.

The fact we could have Hardman at full back and have him look competent is proof of that!

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:06 am  

Offside Monkey wrote:

I can't help wonder you're reasoning here. For a start, Charnley was playing on the wing and Marsh the centre. If Wheeler could string more than single appearences together, I'm pretty sure he'd be out performing them easily and Lomax appears to be turning into a very competant SL player with good potential beyond that.
If you were to say that you thought Mossop and Farrell where better than Ashurst and Dixon, I'd start listening, although I'd raise you Cloughy and note that I think there's subtle age differences.

Beyond that, its ALOT easier for young lads to come in when the firt team is in tip top order like it currently is at Wigan. Besides, if a youngster had given a performance to the level of Marsh did, but in a Saints shirt, we'd be getting barracked by Saddened about how he was just a space filler.

Charnley will end up in the centre and looks alot more comfortable at super league level than wheeler does and don't forget wheeler has also played wing for saints.

Mossop, farral, Hanson and Joel Tomkins are top quality young forwards where dixon, ashurst, magennis and cough ain't in the same league.

IMO marsh had also looked more well adapted to super league than lomax. IMO lomax ain't progressed, he's still at the same level he was at the start of last year.

Just ask yourself and be honest which youd rather have at saints:

Lee mossop
Liam Farrell
Joel Tomkins
Harrison Hanson
Charnley
Marsh
Sam Tomkins

Or

Lomax
Wheeler
Eastmond
Dixon
Ashurst
Cough
Magennis
Gaskell

I know what I'd rather have.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:21 am  

I wouldn't swap Charnley for Lomax or Wheeler tbh but as for Marsh on his showing so far i'd swap him for both. He is getting better in defence but he plays the game with his head down and I just can't see him cutting it at centre.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:00 pm  

the reason wigan manage to form such a impenetrable defense is because they seem to be able to lie on in the tackle seconds longer than any other team would be allowed to do! this Allows them vital time to organise there defence line. every time hudds copied Wigans tactics they where penalised !

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:02 pm  

you can try and pick holes but you wont see a better " team" performance than the one from Wigan last night

the number of usual starters they had missing would have flattened most squads- their defence was of NRL proportions and Nathan Brown summed it up " we would have beaten most teams other than wigan tonight"- he's right Hudds werent too far off - prob dropped a bit too much ball but you could put that down to Wigans defensive strength.

It may not have been a real thriller but it was properly coached Rugby from Wigan and if you want competitive and intense competition we need more of that-

and Barring a mass of injuries For Wigan - 13 teams are battling for one place at OT

and one stat to bear in mind St George leaked an average of 12 per game last season in winning the NRL - Wigan are currently doing that number - defence does win games

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:06 pm  

handrags wrote:

the reason wigan manage to form such a impenetrable defense is because they seem to be able to lie on in the tackle seconds longer than any other team would be allowed to do! this Allows them vital time to organise there defence line. every time hudds copied Wigans tactics they where penalised !

Disagree.

People that go down that route (and i include some bitter coaches amongst these) are starting to look very foolish.

One of Wigans key advantages over the opposition is that they are fitter than the opposition and their techinique is technically superior.

Huddersfield are very strong in defence too but a number of their forwards looked shattered in the second half, when fatigue sets in we then burn team off out wide.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:13 pm  

dany1979 wrote:

Disagree.

People that go down that route (and i include some bitter coaches amongst these) are starting to look very foolish.

One of Wigans key advantages over the opposition is that they are fitter than the opposition and their techinique is technically superior.

I think numbers into the tackle is one of Maguire's main methods. I've watched Saints recently and it's rare we get any more than 2 into any tackle, usually it's one with another groping around the fringes. Wigan often get three or four involved, which naturally takes longer to resume play.

Re: Those damn Goons : Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:15 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

Defence is just as important as attack, so I admired the way Wigan defended last night.

I agree that defence is as important as attack but it is the style of defence that I am at odds with. There is no reason for three and four man tackles with the wrestling element to prove a good defence. That is just slowing the game down, presumably to ensure that the handful of really gifted players Wigan actually have can do their business. Wise tactics. However, it makes for a dull match. Warrington can do great defence but they don't do it Wigan's way. Hudds do. Put them together and man, it was boring. Frustrating too, mind you, because Hudds were so incompetent in fulfilling their many opportunities. Had they at least scored more, as they should have done, then the attacking edge would have balanced the defensive dullness to some degree.

No, give me Wire -v- Leeds or Cas -v- us or some other combination of more expansive types of rugby league (and in our case PLEASE NOTE! I am projecting into a hopeful future), with great defence on offer but none of that three/four man in wrestling show.

Warrington base their game on a strong attack, Wigan more a strong defence but both are capable of doing both sides of the game extremely well on their day. At the moment, you'd have to say they're the best two teams, despite Cas' early season form.

And I prefer the Warrington version to the Wigan one. In Superleague terms, Wigan -v- Hudds was always going to be a snoozefest for me but I had hoped that Hudds would have been grown up about the matter and not behaved like rabbits in the headlights again. Alas, they still have a significant way to go in conquering their 'big game' nerves.