Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:04 pm  

The Chief wrote:

Trouble with the young uns of today is they expect to be 100% fit before every game when in reality, they will spend their entire career at 90-95% fit.

In reality, they best get themselves playing lest they find themseles out of a job.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:54 pm  

The Chief wrote:

Im happy to make a start on listing players leaving against signings/improved deals:

Outs since 2007/8
Paul Sculthorpe
Matt Gidley
Sean Long
Jason Cayless
Kieron Cunningham
Paul Anderson
Lee Gilmour
Jason Hooper
Mike Bennett
Willie Talau
Maurie Faasavalu
Bryn Hargreaves
Jake Emmitt
Nick Fozzard

Ins/improved deals:
Chris Flannery
Sia Soliola
Tony Puletua
Paul Clough
LMS
Luke Perry
Michael Shenton
Jamie Foster
Andrew Dixon
Matty Ashurst
Johnny Lomax
Kyle Eastmond
Scott Moore


Can anyone add anything to this? I can honestly say I dont think the ins/outs does balance up in terms of £ or skill level/experience.

One point on this that no one has mentioned, we were done for a few years for salary cap breaches, technical or not, that's money that was reduced. We were also 'allegedly' one of the users of the overseas/image rights tax 'efficiency' schemes, the stopping of the use of those will have left us with less money to offer than we used to be able to.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:15 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

One point on this that no one has mentioned, we were done for a few years for salary cap breaches, technical or not, that's money that was reduced. We were also 'allegedly' one of the users of the overseas/image rights tax 'efficiency' schemes, the stopping of the use of those will have left us with less money to offer than we used to be able to.

I think the major fact would be your quality home grown players starting to be paid like the quality players they are.

Graham + Roby are two of the best players in the league and you would assume they are now being paid accordingly.

I think the same will happen to Wigan in a couple of years, at the minute we have a huge squad depth as the quality youngsters who are in the side (i'm assuming) aren't quite being paid to the level equivelant players would be yet.

When the likes of the Tomkins, Farrell, Goulding etc etc reach their next contracts I imagine we'll have a bit less to play around with.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:27 pm  

inside_man wrote:

I think the major fact would be your quality home grown players starting to be paid like the quality players they are.

Graham + Roby are two of the best players in the league and you would assume they are now being paid accordingly.

I think the same will happen to Wigan in a couple of years, at the minute we have a huge squad depth as the quality youngsters who are in the side (i'm assuming) aren't quite being paid to the level equivelant players would be yet.

When the likes of the Tomkins, Farrell, Goulding etc etc reach their next contracts I imagine we'll have a bit less to play around with.

What's your game?

I've seen a few of your posts and they are far too rounded, open minded and free of bias to be from a genuine Wigan fan.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:04 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

We were also 'allegedly' one of the users of the overseas/image rights tax 'efficiency' schemes, the stopping of the use of those will have left us with less money to offer than we used to be able to.

Mmm, but I seem to remember reading in the SL press at the time when this became news that Saints had been just about the only club to have been in regular touch with HMRC in order to avoid any trouble in future. In fact, it was reported at the time that the RFL were liaising with Saints to find the best way forward for other clubs. I don't think the image rights issue will have cost us anything because McManus kept on top of it throughout. The loss of silverware will have had an effect. I'm not sure about our last breach of the salary cap as it was a very minor infringement. Were we fined or anything? I can't remember.

For mine I believe it has been the costs involved with the new stadium as well as maintaining the old alongside which has limited our scope insofar as recruitment is concerned. Plus, I think McManus is actually genuine in his statements about preferring local/British talent where possible. He's a local lad made good himself and a Saints fan, so I can see that being the case, with all other aspects of the idea being a bonus as well.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:41 pm  

Promoting from within is the only real sustainable business strategy a club can have. If you are going to attract young playing talent to your club then they must see that the club have it as one of its core operating strategies. Who wants to go and sign for a club that ignores its youth and plumps instead for other teams' academy graduates or superstars? It's a no brainer and is something that a lot of baseball teams have come to realise in the MLB with many of the smaller revenue clubs adopting this approach instead of trying to snatch up lots of expensive free agents. For a club that isn't cash rich to compete it needs to have its own production line of playing talent.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:03 pm  

McClennan wrote:

For a club that isn't cash rich to compete it needs to have its own production line of playing talent.

I think it's very rare in super league you'll find a club that is "cash rich" and that's why the clubs with the strongest academy setups (Saints and Leeds) have been at the top for the longest.

Hopefully now ours has been sorted out we can stay at the top for a long period of time.

The only peace of mind (or not depending on your opinion) in Wire spending the cash to get to the top as they are cash rich thanks to their owner is that they seem to be sorting out their academy as well.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:58 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Mmm, but I seem to remember reading in the SL press at the time when this became news that Saints had been just about the only club to have been in regular touch with HMRC in order to avoid any trouble in future. In fact, it was reported at the time that the RFL were liaising with Saints to find the best way forward for other clubs. I don't think the image rights issue will have cost us anything because McManus kept on top of it throughout. The loss of silverware will have had an effect. I'm not sure about our last breach of the salary cap as it was a very minor infringement. Were we fined or anything? I can't remember.

Minimising trouble in the future would mean not doing it as much though .

Whereas we may have got away with paying Sculthorpe, etc. £100,000 of his wages in image rights and he was getting taxed at 28% on that, players now will be getting less in image rights and being taxed at 40 - 50% on the rest. Given that we went through a period of a number of t shirts and merchandise being brought out, I'd say Scully, Long, KC and Lyon were all being paid that way (the t shirts would give them the required image for us to get away with it). That money would have to be made up, and I reckon we're at least 5-10% down on what we could pay on the cap a few years back due to the tax situation. (Obviously all these figures are supposition on my part).

For mine I believe it has been the costs involved with the new stadium as well as maintaining the old alongside which has limited our scope insofar as recruitment is concerned. Plus, I think McManus is actually genuine in his statements about preferring local/British talent where possible. He's a local lad made good himself and a Saints fan, so I can see that being the case, with all other aspects of the idea being a bonus as well.

I agree with all those points, though if the costs of the stadium are effecting the wage budget does that mean you don't believe Colquitt when he says we are spending up to the cap?

inside man wrote:

Graham + Roby are two of the best players in the league and you would assume they are now being paid accordingly.

I think the same will happen to Wigan in a couple of years, at the minute we have a huge squad depth as the quality youngsters who are in the side (i'm assuming) aren't quite being paid to the level equivelant players would be yet.

When the likes of the Tomkins, Farrell, Goulding etc etc reach their next contracts I imagine we'll have a bit less to play around with.

I also agree with this. We also have the situation were young players are wanted by other clubs who need to meet the quota rules and maybe we can't get away with academy lads a bit less than we would with bought in talent like we could a few years ago.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:08 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Minimising trouble in the future would mean not doing it as much though .

Possibly. It all depends on how much we were doing it relative to how much became allowed under the retrospective change in tax rules. I don't know the answer to either of those points so all I can do is speculate. Assuming McManus had been keeping his ear to the ground during probably what was our most successful period in about 40 years, I would imagine we wouldn't have suffered too greatly. He strikes me as being a financially canny individual. However, that's all supposition and speculation as I haven't got a clue what he did and did not do or what Saints' players actually earned in image rights. However, I expect we won't see too many image-based t-shirts and such like in the future!

I agree with all those points, though if the costs of the stadium are effecting the wage budget does that mean you don't believe Colquitt when he says we are spending up to the cap?

I'm pretty sure we are spending up to the cap, but are we spending the money only on players? He hasn't said either way, at least not so far as I can remember.

Re: The best off season signings possible. : Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:33 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Possibly. It all depends on how much we were doing it relative to how much became allowed under the retrospective change in tax rules. I don't know the answer to either of those points so all I can do is speculate. Assuming McManus had been keeping his ear to the ground during probably what was our most successful period in about 40 years, I would imagine we wouldn't have suffered too greatly. He strikes me as being a financially canny individual. However, that's all supposition and speculation as I haven't got a clue what he did and did not do or what Saints' players actually earned in image rights. However, I expect we won't see too many image-based t-shirts and such like in the future!

Lol maybe not. It is a valid way of paying a player, but sporting clubs in general were starting to take the mick with the players involved and amounts paid over.

I'm pretty sure we are spending up to the cap, but are we spending the money only on players? He hasn't said either way, at least not so far as I can remember.

The cap is players only isn't it?