Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:49 pm  

The debate I had on this thread with Phuzzy regarding Wigan and Saints' packs is significantly more relevant now than it was when it was done. Saints' forwards have upped it even further whilst Wigan's game has moved even further away from a traditional RL game of using props for territory. It is no coincidence that Wigan's lack of using their props is massively impacting their ability to actually go forwards.

To think, not long ago, Wiganers, with a straight face, reckoned Amor wouldn't make their 17 and Walmsley is only the equal of the likes of Clubb and Crosby. Laughable really.

It'd be interesting to see some of their views now.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:51 pm  

SLS wrote:

The debate I had on this thread with Phuzzy regarding Wigan and Saints' packs is significantly more relevant now than it was when it was done. Saints' forwards have upped it even further whilst Wigan's game has moved even further away from a traditional RL game of using props for territory. It is no coincidence that Wigan's lack of using their props is massively impacting their ability to actually go forwards.

To think, not long ago, Wiganers, with a straight face, reckoned Amor wouldn't make their 17 and Walmsley is only the equal of the likes of Clubb and Crosby. Laughable really.

It'd be interesting to see some of their views now.

Go over to cherry & white and ask them. On second thoughts you'll probably get banned.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:52 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I agree that the two packs play in a completely different way, and therefore, in some aspects, direct comparison is futile. The way we use O'Loughlin as a 3rd pivot is probably the biggest single illustration of the different approaches. However the original point (from Pete I think) was that the Saints pack, as a rule, was bossed by the more aggressive Wigan pack (we'll add the caveat 'when both were at full strength' lol) and I'm not sure how that is affected by direct comparisons, especially man for man. You mention that the Wigan pack plays at the edge and that is certainly true. It's that aspect that the Saints pack seems to struggle with, certainly in recent seasons. That's something that was highlighted time and again on this very board prior to the last 2 games between us; when the going got tough, the Saints pack seemed unable to step up. Nathan Brown intimated as much himself after the Good Friday defeat. Whether there has been a sea change in attitude since these last two games remains to be seen as, as I've been at pains to point out, the 2 packs haven't met head on and close to full strength in them but even so, there does seem to have been a change in attitude. I think that was evident from the opening couple minutes of the GF! It's a shame, in some respects, that Flower lost the plot as it would have been interesting to see how that developed. Anyoo, that's history but I'm sure we'll find out over the coming season!

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

Re: Re: : Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:56 pm  

No1 Saint wrote:

Still got this one book marked Rogues ??

Hahahahaha

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:03 pm  

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=577416&start=80 This has got some crackers in it as well. This one's a good one. NickyKiss wrote: Crosby is vastly under-rated IMO and as already pointed out not a single Wigan fan would agree with Dudson being better then him. I expect big things from Crosby this year who really looks to be developing year on year. Not a great deal in the packs between both clubs really. I certainly wouldn't swap and I'd take our back row options all day long but the props are pretty even and if Roby starts this year as he finishes last he'll make a real difference to your side. Some good battles ahead this year I reckon.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=577416&start=80 This has got some crackers in it as well. This one's a good one. NickyKiss wrote: Crosby is vastly under-rated IMO and as already pointed out not a single Wigan fan would agree with Dudson being better then him. I expect big things from Crosby this year who really looks to be developing year on year. Not a great deal in the packs between both clubs really. I certainly wouldn't swap and I'd take our back row options all day long but the props are pretty even and if Roby starts this year as he finishes last he'll make a real difference to your side. Some good battles ahead this year I reckon.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:16 pm  

SLS wrote:

The debate I had on this thread with Phuzzy regarding Wigan and Saints' packs is significantly more relevant now than it was when it was done. Saints' forwards have upped it even further whilst Wigan's game has moved even further away from a traditional RL game of using props for territory. It is no coincidence that Wigan's lack of using their props is massively impacting their ability to actually go forwards.

To think, not long ago, Wiganers, with a straight face, reckoned Amor wouldn't make their 17 and Walmsley is only the equal of the likes of Clubb and Crosby. Laughable really.

It'd be interesting to see some of their views now.

I wouldnt have Crosby running on with the water, he'd probably bump into one of the ball boys and end up on his ar$e

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:31 pm  

No1 Saint wrote:

I wouldnt have Crosby running on with the water, he'd probably bump into one of the ball boys and end up on his ar$e

What have they done to Larne Patrick? He's gone from a decent player to a championship player.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:03 am  

St pete wrote:

What have they done to Larne Patrick? He's gone from a decent player to a championship player.

I always thought he looked pretty decent at hudds , the goons fans dont seem to rate him though. Another that seems to get flack over there is Farrell, he normally looks like one of their more capable forwards to me and runs the channels pretty well

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:36 am  

No1 Saint wrote:

I always thought he looked pretty decent at hudds , the goons fans dont seem to rate him though. Another that seems to get flack over there is Farrell, he normally looks like one of their more capable forwards to me and runs the channels pretty well

Farrell's big weakness is his size and relative lack of power. If you block up the channels he's effectively a waste of space because he provides very little go forward against the big guys.

I mean, he'd probably be okay with heavy earth movers like Hill, Graham, Walmsley etc. providing the centrefield traction. But with Wigan's current front row turning in the kind of figures they did at Leeds (not to mention Wane's lunatic style of playing tick-rugby before anyone has even begun to establish some kind of yardage platform) he's being exposed badly.

He's somewhat akin to Jon Wilkin in that if he has to function as a yardage maker he's effectively useless.

The Aussies figured him out completely in the internationals. From the very first minute they were tracking him across the pitch - waiting to pounce every time he injected himself into the line. From therein he did absolutely nothing.

Trouble is - Wigan aren't exactly spoilt for choice in the second row, either. Now they are talking about bringing one centre in (Gelling) to replace another (Tomkins).

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:51 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Farrell's big weakness is his size and relative lack of power. If you block up the channels he's effectively a waste of space because he provides very little go forward against the big guys.

I mean, he'd probably be okay with heavy earth movers like Hill, Graham, Walmsley etc. providing the centrefield traction. But with Wigan's current front row turning in the kind of figures they did at Leeds (not to mention Wane's lunatic style of playing tick-rugby before anyone has even begun to establish some kind of yardage platform) he's being exposed badly.

He's somewhat akin to Jon Wilkin in that if he has to function as a yardage maker he's effectively useless.

The Aussies figured him out completely in the internationals. From the very first minute they were tracking him across the pitch - waiting to pounce every time he injected himself into the line. From therein he did absolutely nothing.

Trouble is - Wigan aren't exactly spoilt for choice in the second row, either. Now they are talking about bringing one centre in (Gelling) to replace another (Tomkins).

I'd argue Tomkins is not a centre. For me he is always a second rower. But other than that, they do seem to be missing some bulk.