Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:59 pm  

It's as if Wiganers don't actually watch the game. A comparison of packs is almost futile as both sides play different games. Wigan's forwards play on the edge. The vast majority of their metres comes through their second rowers. Their props offer little. I'm sure their 'props' in the Grand Final contributed similar to what Luke Thompson offered on his own for St Helens. Clubb, Flower and Crosby against Amor, Masoe and Walmsley ?!?! Ats not even a contest. Saints bullied Wigan's front row and did it twice last year. Masoe, in particular, set the tone massively in both games. A big part of why Wigan are obsessively stock piling props is, IMO, entirely because Wane knows to beat Saints, their props are going to need to compete. Can't rely on Liam Farrell and your threequarters for all your go forward.

It is remiss of any Wiganer to seriously tell Saints fans that Wigan's pack is 'better'. Kyle Amor is the best prop on both sides by an absolute mile. In fact, Masoe, Walmsley and Amor would all make Wigan's 17 every time.

Wigan have an excellent structure, are excellent in the backs with the exception of Gelling, and supremely aggressive defence. Player for player, they aren't all that at all. O'Loughlin is the real star of both sides.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:09 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

Fair enough, apologies for the "bleating" comment.

I assumed we had moved on from discussing just the packs when you referred to 9 first choice players missing at the DW.

No worries and cheers for the apology!

Yeah, I could have worded that better. I meant by implication that we had a lot of players out including first choice pack members. If memory serves I think we were missing both first choice hookers in McIlorum and Williams, Farrell, Flower and Pettybourne out plus Tomkins still wasn't fit after re-signing. In addition it was the first game back after injury for Bateman, O'Loughlin and possibly Crosby (although I'm not 100% on that one). I can't remember if there were any others to be honest but I think it does show that the pack wasn't even close to full strength. Just the losses of Flower, McIllorum and Farrell alone seriously weakens the pack and, in particular, it's hard to overestimate the loss of McIlorum when going up against a team with Roby in it. IIRC we had that many missing we actually debuted Doran at hooker in that game wearing squad number 42!!

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:54 pm  

SLS wrote:

It's as if Wiganers don't actually watch the game. A comparison of packs is almost futile as both sides play different games. Wigan's forwards play on the edge. The vast majority of their metres comes through their second rowers. Their props offer little. I'm sure their 'props' in the Grand Final contributed similar to what Luke Thompson offered on his own for St Helens. Clubb, Flower and Crosby against Amor, Masoe and Walmsley ?!?! Ats not even a contest. Saints bullied Wigan's front row and did it twice last year. Masoe, in particular, set the tone massively in both games. A big part of why Wigan are obsessively stock piling props is, IMO, entirely because Wane knows to beat Saints, their props are going to need to compete. Can't rely on Liam Farrell and your threequarters for all your go forward.

It is remiss of any Wiganer to seriously tell Saints fans that Wigan's pack is 'better'. Kyle Amor is the best prop on both sides by an absolute mile. In fact, Masoe, Walmsley and Amor would all make Wigan's 17 every time.

Wigan have an excellent structure, are excellent in the backs with the exception of Gelling, and supremely aggressive defence. Player for player, they aren't all that at all. O'Loughlin is the real star of both sides.

I agree that the two packs play in a completely different way, and therefore, in some aspects, direct comparison is futile. The way we use O'Loughlin as a 3rd pivot is probably the biggest single illustration of the different approaches. However the original point (from Pete I think) was that the Saints pack, as a rule, was bossed by the more aggressive Wigan pack (we'll add the caveat 'when both were at full strength' lol) and I'm not sure how that is affected by direct comparisons, especially man for man. You mention that the Wigan pack plays at the edge and that is certainly true. It's that aspect that the Saints pack seems to struggle with, certainly in recent seasons. That's something that was highlighted time and again on this very board prior to the last 2 games between us; when the going got tough, the Saints pack seemed unable to step up. Nathan Brown intimated as much himself after the Good Friday defeat. Whether there has been a sea change in attitude since these last two games remains to be seen as, as I've been at pains to point out, the 2 packs haven't met head on and close to full strength in them but even so, there does seem to have been a change in attitude. I think that was evident from the opening couple minutes of the GF! It's a shame, in some respects, that Flower lost the plot as it would have been interesting to see how that developed. Anyoo, that's history but I'm sure we'll find out over the coming season!

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:13 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I agree that the two packs play in a completely different way, and therefore, in some aspects, direct comparison is futile. The way we use O'Loughlin as a 3rd pivot is probably the biggest single illustration of the different approaches. However the original point (from Pete I think) was that the Saints pack, as a rule, was bossed by the more aggressive Wigan pack (we'll add the caveat 'when both were at full strength' lol) and I'm not sure how that is affected by direct comparisons, especially man for man. You mention that the Wigan pack plays at the edge and that is certainly true. It's that aspect that the Saints pack seems to struggle with, certainly in recent seasons. That's something that was highlighted time and again on this very board prior to the last 2 games between us; when the going got tough, the Saints pack seemed unable to step up. Nathan Brown intimated as much himself after the Good Friday defeat. Whether there has been a sea change in attitude since these last two games remains to be seen as, as I've been at pains to point out, the 2 packs haven't met head on and close to full strength in them but even so, there does seem to have been a change in attitude. I think that was evident from the opening couple minutes of the GF! It's a shame, in some respects, that Flower lost the plot as it would have been interesting to see how that developed. Anyoo, that's history but I'm sure we'll find out over the coming season!

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

I understand what your saying, but Masoe would get into the side every time Pettybourne is in the Wigan side, Masoe is an ongoing argument on here, similar to Pettybourne on the Wigan site, but Masoes best is ahead of Pettybournes imo. As for Walmsley, I'd of had Taylor ahead of him, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Speaking more generally about Wigans signings, I don't actually think your signings improve your absolute best, and only Tautai (whom I'm not convinced by) having the potential to bring an extra dimension. What they do bring is rotation without any depreciable drop in performance. I maintain that next year will be the same as this year, in that Saints absolute best is better than Wigans, but Wigan will be closer to that level far more often (all imo), with the possible exception of Warrington though, on paper Saints and Wigan are in a league of their own next year...

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:45 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

Phuzzy, I'll tread carefully as you seem like you genuinely believe what you're writing and are at least trying but honestly, how much rugby do you watch ? I mean, other than Wigan, in a genuinely unbalanced manner - how much do you watch ? Because seriously, anybody telling me that Walmsley is not as good as Taylor and Flower and is on a par with Clubb can't watch a lot.

A prop's job on a rugby league field is metres, primarily. Their job is to provide the territory and go forward for their backs to play. The best are able to offer that go forward with a real work rate in defence on top, such as James Graham for example. Now, since a prop's role is so clear, it can be measured by statistics. Here are some for you to consider (and seriously, consider them because they make your theory sound ridiculous).

So, Walmsley is not as good as Taylor or Flower. Here are the average metres made per game by all three -

Walmsley - 108m.
Flower - 68m.
Taylor - 79m

Clubb, who Walmsley is on a par with averages 71m a game.

Here are how many carries a game that these props average. How often they're prepared to cart it up -

Walmsley - 13.
Flower - 10.
Taylor - 10.
Clubb - 9.

Here are the tackles they average. Their defensive work rate per game -

Walmsley - 17.
Flower - 26.
Taylor - 20.
Clubb - 19.

Tackle busts. How many times a game do these guys put themselves in position to win the floor, get quick ball for their backs.

Walmsley - 2.7.
Flower - 1.4.
Taylor - 2.3.
Clubb - 1.7.

Basically, Walmsley makes more metres, offers more carries and wins the floor more often whilst his Wigan counterparts offer more tackles in a game of which many will be second and third man in, in line with Wane's emphasis on controlling the ruck.

With this in mind, Phuzzy, are you still seriously going to try and tell me that Walmsley is not as good as any of these props ? Seriously ?

Here are Crosby's, who's another you assert was Walmsley's equal last season.

Metres per game - 73m.
Carries - 10.
Tackles - 20.
Busts - 0.7.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:03 pm  

SLS wrote:

Phuzzy, I'll tread carefully as you seem like you genuinely believe what you're writing and are at least trying but honestly, how much rugby do you watch ? I mean, other than Wigan, in a genuinely unbalanced manner - how much do you watch ? Because seriously, anybody telling me that Walmsley is not as good as Taylor and Flower and is on a par with Clubb can't watch a lot.

A prop's job on a rugby league field is metres, primarily. Their job is to provide the territory and go forward for their backs to play. The best are able to offer that go forward with a real work rate in defence on top, such as James Graham for example. Now, since a prop's role is so clear, it can be measured by statistics. Here are some for you to consider (and seriously, consider them because they make your theory sound ridiculous).

So, Walmsley is not as good as Taylor or Flower. Here are the average metres made per game by all three -

Walmsley - 108m.
Flower - 68m.
Taylor - 79m

Clubb, who Walmsley is on a par with averages 71m a game.

Here are how many carries a game that these props average. How often they're prepared to cart it up -

Walmsley - 13.
Flower - 10.
Taylor - 10.
Clubb - 9.

Here are the tackles they average. Their defensive work rate per game -

Walmsley - 17.
Flower - 26.
Taylor - 20.
Clubb - 19.

Tackle busts. How many times a game do these guys put themselves in position to win the floor, get quick ball for their backs.

Walmsley - 2.7.
Flower - 1.4.
Taylor - 2.3.
Clubb - 1.7.

Basically, Walmsley makes more metres, offers more carries and wins the floor more often whilst his Wigan counterparts offer more tackles in a game of which many will be second and third man in, in line with Wane's emphasis on controlling the ruck.

With this in mind, Phuzzy, are you still seriously going to try and tell me that Walmsley is not as good as any of these props ? Seriously ?

Here are Crosby's, who's another you assert was Walmsley's equal last season.

Metres per game - 73m.
Carries - 10.
Tackles - 20.
Busts - 0.7.

Good stats mate and good post.


It with eve interesting if you could put Mose in with them and see his stats. Walmsley has come in for critisim on here for not playing well yet Mose is seen as the worlds greatest prop. I think those stats prove that big Alex is a good prop.

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:06 pm  

St pete wrote:

Good stats mate and good post.


It with eve interesting if you could put Mose in with them and see his stats. Walmsley has come in for critisim on here for not playing well yet Mose is seen as the worlds greatest prop. I think those stats prove that big Alex is a good prop.

Mose:

82m per game
10 carries per game
15 tackles per game
2.1 busts per game

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:16 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

Mose:

82m per game
10 carries per game
15 tackles per game
2.1 busts per game

Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ?

Big Alex does 26m per game more. He does 3 carries more. 2 tackles more and 0.6 tackle busts more.

So he beats him every department and it's easy to compare as both are classed as impact players

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:20 pm  

St pete wrote: Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ? Refer to 1:22 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3K312eIyrg

St pete wrote: Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ? Refer to 1:22 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3K312eIyrg

Re: The Wigan Envy-O-Meter. : Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:54 pm  

St pete wrote:

Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ?

Big Alex does 26m per game more. He does 3 carries more. 2 tackles more and 0.6 tackle busts more.

So he beats him every department and it's easy to compare as both are classed as impact players

Cheers for the compliment, much appreciated.

Can't compare Masoe and Walmsley in my opinion. Walmsley isn't an impact prop any longer. He's a 1st or 2nd prop nowadays (10+ carries, 100+m, 15+ tackles). Masoe is as clear an impact prop as you'll ever see. Much lower work rate but high impact. Wigan certainly couldn't handle his impact. It was Masoe that rattled them to the point that Flower did what he did.

As I said earlier though, Amor is the real player. Injury curtailed his season sadly but he's an international in all but name. Next cab off the rank in the line of England props. Top class. I remember reading an idiotic Wiganer state seriously that Amor wouldn't make their 17 when St Helens signed him. They haven't got a prop worth shining his boots.