Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:43 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

I can't tell if you actually mean this or if you're taking the mick.

You honestly think that a drop off to a prop on the 4th tackle when chasing the game was the RIGHT thing to do?? Wow. We should be aiming to score tries in that situation, not preparing ourselves in advance for a better opportunity at a repeat set!! The lack of ambition, creativity and urgency in what you're saying is absolutely shocking.

20 off the line to get us back to the middle, after a spread play the play before? Yes. In terms of our chances of winning the match, being ready for a good attacking kick to try and score a try or force a repeat set does a lot more than aimlessly chucking the ball from one touchline to the other despite a spread play the play before. Even with 8 minutes to go, some times you just need to set up for the next play.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:03 pm  

Saint #1 wrote:

20 off the line to get us back to the middle, after a spread play the play before? Yes. In terms of our chances of winning the match, being ready for a good attacking kick to try and score a try or force a repeat set does a lot more than aimlessly chucking the ball from one touchline to the other despite a spread play the play before. Even with 8 minutes to go, some times you just need to set up for the next play.

There's a time and a place for being patient, I agree with that bit.

But when you've tried and failed with those tactics already for 72 minutes and you have a numerical advantage, not chancing our arm and playing more expansively was an error; an error which ultimately cost us the game.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:16 pm  

Saint #1 wrote:

20 off the line to get us back to the middle, after a spread play the play before? Yes. In terms of our chances of winning the match, being ready for a good attacking kick to try and score a try or force a repeat set does a lot more than aimlessly chucking the ball from one touchline to the other despite a spread play the play before. Even with 8 minutes to go, some times you just need to set up for the next play.

Aimlessly? Throwing the ball out wide, creating overlaps, missing players out, offloads etc this is what it means to play for a team like Saints, who were long famous for scoring last minute tries (Never write off the Saints etc) before the successes of post 96 never mind before it.

I'm sorry, I know for many other clubs, that strategy against 12 men is totally acceptable, but if that's what we've settled for as Saints fans then we've lost the very thing that set us apart from other teams...I don't mean winning trophies, i mean playing the game like the Brazilians play football.

I'm not losing hope yet...players like Lomax (when he comes back), Makinson, Swift, Percival, Richards, Thompson, Charnock, Roby, Greenwood, Savelio and co all know what it means to play for Saints.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:32 am  

I'm not given to over reaction, so I've given it the weekend . It's the tactics , simple. Apart from Vea (plenty of 2nd row cover), Lomax (Quinlan cover) and Tommy Mak -( really missing this lads finishing) we had a full squad avaliable and it was shocking.
It's all good KC coming out ever week saying the players arnt performing, but it's his bloody job to make them! Why arnt they?
KC starting to look horribly out of his depth and if things don't improve a Saints legend will destroy his own reputation

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:33 am  

Twentyman wrote:

Aimlessly? Throwing the ball out wide, creating overlaps, missing players out, offloads etc this is what it means to play for a team like Saints, who were long famous for scoring last minute tries (Never write off the Saints etc) before the successes of post 96 never mind before it.

I'm sorry, I know for many other clubs, that strategy against 12 men is totally acceptable, but if that's what we've settled for as Saints fans then we've lost the very thing that set us apart from other teams...I don't mean winning trophies, i mean playing the game like the Brazilians play football.

I'm not losing hope yet...players like Lomax (when he comes back), Makinson, Swift, Percival, Richards, Thompson, Charnock, Roby, Greenwood, Savelio and co all know what it means to play for Saints.

A drop off is a play that settles you and gets you back to the middle for the next play. If we're running a drop off on 4th, 20 out from the line, it's because we spread the ball the play before. It's very difficult to set up a triple second man play, immediately after a spread play the other way - plus we tend to run our spread plays from just outside the far post.

But I'm talking in terms of winning. In terms of whether it's good to watch? Not really. It looks like we've spent the entire year playing as we would in a Grand Final, where you kick early, play for territory and don't look to be expansive. We've scored some excellent, skillful individual tries, but not many from the top of my head which have been off the cuff team tries.

I think something to bear in mind here is the amount of young players (and new players) we've got at the minute. Being new to (consistently) playing first team, players aren't always gonna be confident enough at this level to throw passes they're capable of. That will (hopefully) come with time, but with Quinlan, Vea, Greenwood, Percival, Savelio, Richards, Thompson, Charnock, Savelio all new to consistently playing first team for Saints, which probably magnifies our current game plan in terms of lack of flair. Look at Walmsley for example - 16 offloads in 2013, 17 offloads in 2014, 46 offloads this year already. LMS in his first season with us offloaded 9 times all year. 23 the following year, 28 already this year.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:52 am  

Saint Simon wrote:

It's all good KC coming out ever week saying the players arnt performing, but it's his bloody job to make them! Why arnt they?

Hanley had exactly the same problem with Tricky Trindall, KC has the problem in that he has two of them, worse still he can't replace them with anybody at the moment.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:16 am  

what annoyed me the most was when Walsh threw a horrendous pass to Swift which sailed about 3 foot above him & straight into touch. Then Walsh just flapped his arms to say 'you should of taken that'. I think it may be time to pull Walsh out for the next game however Burns hasn't been great either. Can Quinlan play 7?

Also I think the players need to take some responsibility to, there where knock ons from the play the balls, forward passes, balls going into touch. Pretty basic stuff really. lets just hope this is our dip in form and we get better.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:24 am  

Saint #1 wrote:

A drop off is a play that settles you and gets you back to the middle for the next play. If we're running a drop off on 4th, 20 out from the line, it's because we spread the ball the play before. It's very difficult to set up a triple second man play, immediately after a spread play the other way - plus we tend to run our spread plays from just outside the far post.

But I'm talking in terms of winning. In terms of whether it's good to watch? Not really. It looks like we've spent the entire year playing as we would in a Grand Final, where you kick early, play for territory and don't look to be expansive. We've scored some excellent, skillful individual tries, but not many from the top of my head which have been off the cuff team tries.

I think something to bear in mind here is the amount of young players (and new players) we've got at the minute. Being new to (consistently) playing first team, players aren't always gonna be confident enough at this level to throw passes they're capable of. That will (hopefully) come with time, but with Quinlan, Vea, Greenwood, Percival, Savelio, Richards, Thompson, Charnock, Savelio all new to consistently playing first team for Saints, which probably magnifies our current game plan in terms of lack of flair. Look at Walmsley for example - 16 offloads in 2013, 17 offloads in 2014, 46 offloads this year already. LMS in his first season with us offloaded 9 times all year. 23 the following year, 28 already this year.

I don't think anyone has a problem with a drop off as a settling play after a shift. But 90% of the time it's not coming after a shift. It's coming after a winger scoot and a 1st receiver hit up. After this Burns or Walsh carries the ball to the fringe of the ruck (presumably in a transparent attempt to convince the opposition that the play might be going wide) then drops it off to a runner cutting an inside line. Rather than using it to bring the ball from the edges to the middle, we're using it to go from the middle to the middle.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:20 am  

I've been lucky enough to miss last week's game.

I do, however, well remember one of the worst nights in my saints speccy history being the home defeat to Hull in our first year at Langtree park. You'll remember Jordan Turner (in a hull shirt) skinning Shenton for a long range try.

That was just before we got rid of Royce, but the game day feels very similar.

We do have an outstanding set of forwards, but when practically every play is the same, with one man trucking it up by himself, then its is SO easy to defend against, then its marginalising the power we do have. This was exactly the same in Royce final weeks.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:03 am  

Dux wrote:

I don't think anyone has a problem with a drop off as a settling play after a shift. But 90% of the time it's not coming after a shift. It's coming after a winger scoot and a 1st receiver hit up. After this Burns or Walsh carries the ball to the fringe of the ruck (presumably in a transparent attempt to convince the opposition that the play might be going wide) then drops it off to a runner cutting an inside line. Rather than using it to bring the ball from the edges to the middle, we're using it to go from the middle to the middle.

The specific example quoted was 20 out from the Catalan line, I'd be more concerned if a winger was scooting there! I suppose part of the problem is with Wilkin out, we don't have any ball-playing forwards who can take the ball to the line and actually hit a pass. The drop off is one of the only ways we can look like we're actually going wide (which we can only actually do off a quick PTB due to our pedestrian halves.

Offside Monkey wrote:

I've been lucky enough to miss last week's game.

I do, however, well remember one of the worst nights in my saints speccy history being the home defeat to Hull in our first year at Langtree park. You'll remember Jordan Turner (in a hull shirt) skinning Shenton for a long range try.

That was just before we got rid of Royce, but the game day feels very similar.

We do have an outstanding set of forwards, but when practically every play is the same, with one man trucking it up by himself, then its is SO easy to defend against, then its marginalising the power we do have. This was exactly the same in Royce final weeks.

I'm not sure we do have an outstanding set of forwards to be honest. Walmsley is carrying our pack in terms of work rate. Against Hull, between Savelio, Richards, Thompson, Flanagan, Greenwood, LMS, Masoe and Turner combined, they made 394 metres. Percival, Swift, Jones and Fleming made 430 metres. When between 8 of your forwards make less than 400 metres and only bust 2 tackles (between 8 of them!!), no wonder your halves don't look any good.