Re: wello the utility : Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:24 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

Haha yeah I remember too! Very depressing.

I think with our current problems at 6, and attacking no.1 is essential. If Lomax got injured and we went for Wellens with Hohaia at 6, we would have very little running threat.

We'd definitely have to go for the third man attack option. If I were coach, I'd have Walsh and Wilkin (he has better distribution than hohaia) as 1st and 2nd receiver Hohaia as the third man attacking the line, with jones outside him and wello inside him if/ when he inevitably gets smashed and can get the offload away. It would (probably) work for a couple of games at least but organisation is the absolute key to those plays coming off - which is why we'd need both roby and Walsh on to compensate for it (and it would weaken our right hand side attack as I imagine Wilkin will play as the pivot on that side).

All conjecture of course - just imo we'd still be competitive with 2 out of the three (lomax Walsh roby) lose 2 of them and we probably couldn't cope with wellens in the team for the big games.

Re: wello the utility : Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:51 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

We'd definitely have to go for the third man attack option. If I were coach, I'd have Walsh and Wilkin (he has better distribution than hohaia) as 1st and 2nd receiver Hohaia as the third man attacking the line, with jones outside him and wello inside him if/ when he inevitably gets smashed and can get the offload away. It would (probably) work for a couple of games at least but organisation is the absolute key to those plays coming off - which is why we'd need both roby and Walsh on to compensate for it (and it would weaken our right hand side attack as I imagine Wilkin will play as the pivot on that side).

All conjecture of course - just imo we'd still be competitive with 2 out of the three (lomax Walsh roby) lose 2 of them and we probably couldn't cope with wellens in the team for the big games.

I see what you're saying but I just think he has become a passenger now and slows things down to the point where he has a negative effect.

Anyway, as you say it's all conjecture and either one of us or neither will be proved right in the next 10 months.

Re: wello the utility : Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:06 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

I see what you're saying but I just think he has become a passenger now and slows things down to the point where he has a negative effect.

Anyway, as you say it's all conjecture and either one of us or neither will be proved right in the next 10 months.

I'd be intrigued to see the solution where neither of us were right

Well as a supporter all you can do is get behind whoever a on the pitch! I still think he's a club legend no matter what goes down this season (and we have been spoilt with those over the last couple of years!)

Reality is, until we sign a consistent back up for 6 and 9 I'd still rather he was around (I don't know if any of the kids in those positions are ready - I'd guess not given none of them were named in the squad)- let's be honest can he be any worse than Howarth???

Re: wello the utility : Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:18 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

I'd be intrigued to see the solution where neither of us were right

Well as a supporter all you can do is get behind whoever a on the pitch! I still think he's a club legend no matter what goes down this season (and we have been spoilt with those over the last couple of years!)

Reality is, until we sign a consistent back up for 6 and 9 I'd still rather he was around (I don't know if any of the kids in those positions are ready - I'd guess not given none of them were named in the squad)- let's be honest can he be any worse than Howarth???

Charnock has a squad number and he is a stand off.

And if we don't play Wellens at all then neither of us would be right about us winning a trophy or not with him in the side

But you're right, he is a legend and I've got huge respect for him. I just worry that his last couple of years will stay in people's minds as much as his glory years. Whereas Long, Cunningham and Scully all finished with Saints before performances dropped too much, Wellens hasn't done that. I genuinely believe that with every passing year that he carries on going, he is tarnishing his own legacy.

Re: wello the utility : Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:06 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

Charnock has a squad number and he is a stand off.

And if we don't play Wellens at all then neither of us would be right about us winning a trophy or not with him in the side

But you're right, he is a legend and I've got huge respect for him. I just worry that his last couple of years will stay in people's minds as much as his glory years. Whereas Long, Cunningham and Scully all finished with Saints before performances dropped too much, Wellens hasn't done that. I genuinely believe that with every passing year that he carries on going, he is tarnishing his own legacy.

This is where the fallacy comes in imo - longs play did drop off, dramatically too - but we had let him go to hull so we never had that expectation. Sculthorpe retired early due to injurys so never really had a "twilight" of his career. Cunningham is the exception, but that's why he's the greatest club man to ever grace a rugby pitch they also didn't go through the dramatic transformation of their own roles whilst playing like wello has.

Any way that's another argument for another day, competition for places is better than no competition for places :p

Re: wello the utility : Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:40 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

This is where the fallacy comes in imo - longs play did drop off, dramatically too - but we had let him go to hull so we never had that expectation. Sculthorpe retired early due to injurys so never really had a "twilight" of his career. Cunningham is the exception, but that's why he's the greatest club man to ever grace a rugby pitch they also didn't go through the dramatic transformation of their own roles whilst playing like wello has.

Any way that's another argument for another day, competition for places is better than no competition for places :p

You could argue that they did not go through the dramatic transformation of the roles as they lead the way in terms of their roles.

Whilst Wellens was an excellent Fullback I don't think he redefined the role, he was the best at it.

But Cunningham changed the hooking role.
Long was way ahead of his contempory's for years the next best 7 was Paul Deacon, whose greatest strength was his place kicking.
Sculthorpe again was another level. So good a loose forward that he could play half back from loose forward.

The reason why I would use Wellens as a stand in FB if Lomax was injured is because it is a straight swap and does not require us to change other elements of the team.

If we are trying to build up partnerships then if Lomax got a knock 50% of the way through the season keeping him out for 4-6 games, then dropping Wellens in leaves the rest of the team unmoved.

I'd rather that be his role than putting him on the bench whilst moving x and y about so Makinson can cover FB.

Re: wello the utility : Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:14 am  

Let's look at this without sympathy and nostalgia. Wellens' time has come and he's no longer anywhere near the player he was. He's had 17 years at the top level which is a damn sight more than many players get, if he was playing at the standard he is now in that first year he'd have been at Rochdale or the like within 2 years.

The only time he should be in that team is if a raging virus takes out 17 players one weekend.

Having said that, if he is providing valuable experience and learning to the younger players I have no real issue with him being in the squad.

Re: wello the utility : Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:02 pm  

The way I see it. You need to play in different positions to be a utility player. Based on all the years I've been watching wello, he can only play fullback.

He's not a utility player. IMO he's just a squad player that should only play if we have dire injury problems.

Re: wello the utility : Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:25 am  

St pete wrote:

The way I see it. You need to play in different positions to be a utility player. Based on all the years I've been watching wello, he can only play fullback.

He's not a utility player. IMO he's just a squad player that should only play if we have dire injury problems.

Sadly it seems Brown thinks otherwise

Re: wello the utility : Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:06 pm  

No1 Saint wrote:

:thumb: Sadly it seems Brown thinks otherwise

Or does he?

There is probably something of a gap, between what he says publicly, what he says privately and what he actually thinks.

If I wanted a happy squad going into the season I would want everyone of my playing squad to think they were in with a shout.

No point putting peoples confidence down before a ball has even been kicked!

It's possible!!