Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:13 pm  

Saving the club from certain financial ruin and building a stadium
buys you the right to extract any essence of playing style and flair,
recruit poorly and create a culture of accommodating back office cronies.

Brings it home when your previous "fringe" scrum half who spent the majority of his Saints career
on loan at other clubs , plays in a dinner jacket against you , and confirms he chose Wigan over returning to Saints
as they have a better style of play.

Recruitment has been a disaster for 6/7 years. HB recruitment and retention has been particularly poor.

Can see EMcM finally being forced into recruiting a scrum-half , taking advice from the same old sources
and coming up with another Perry/Hohaia or splurging on Dobson after he is crocked.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:38 pm  

I mentioned last year we should have gone for Sammut when the bulls where in money trouble, the bloke even plays similar too Longy.
Half backs in Superleague have been falling in standard and availability for quite a few years, I still think we need to find them from within the club, its going to be a problem for most clubs in 2 or 3 years.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:57 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

I mentioned last year we should have gone for Sammut when the bulls where in money trouble, the bloke even plays similar too Longy.
Half backs in Superleague have been falling in standard and availability for quite a few years, I still think we need to find them from within the club, its going to be a problem for most clubs in 2 or 3 years.

I think we have shipped out so many with in the club that any potential half, will be looking at other clubs for career progression once they have finished in the academy.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:09 pm  

We shouldn't have let Smith go, I said it when he went and I'll say it now. His kicking name is exactly what we need.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:05 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

I think we have shipped out so many with in the club that any potential half, will be looking at other clubs for career progression once they have finished in the academy.

I blame Wigan for our demise, we had a 10 year dynasty with Mr Goulding and Mr Long rejects that where converted to world class.
Can,t think of any saints young guns that have left the club to be reknowned international players, only Judas perhaps.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:01 pm  

roader wrote:

Wigan always seem to turn average players into good ones. There is something in their coaching that Saints never seem able to compete with.

That's exactly what us Wigan fans were thinking about Saints back around 2005/6/7. I think the secret is the culture within the club. Back then Saints were winners of the highest order and the big players lead the way and brought out the best in the youngsters and the players deemed as 'average'. They had a similar culture to what Wigan have got now and that's a 'no excuse' and 'expectant' one where any player that pulls on a first team shirt is expected to put in a shift and play for the team regardless of their age or ability. They will be helped along by those around them but nobody is a passenger and not one player is allowed to just make up the numbers.

Too many Saints players are just drifting along at the moment. The older heads like Wilkin and Wellens are trying to lead the way but they're both past their best and must massively miss the days of being generals in a team commanded by guys like Cunningham, Long and Sculthorpe. To think I remember Good Fridays of Wigan trying to beat Saints teams with a 1,3,4,6,7,9 and 13 of Wellens(in his pomp), Lyon, Talau, Pryce, long, Cunningham and Sculthorpe with the small matter of Roby on the bench and now in those spots today we've faced Makinson, Turner, Percival, Wellens, Wilkin, Howarth and Walker. Now granted theres a couple of injuries but my god that is some drop off! every team has had a drop in quality of some sort but that's scary!

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:31 am  

And that comes down to recruitment. Lets look at our match winners over the last couple of decades, Martyn, Long, Scully, Lyon, Goulding, Newlove to name but a few - all brought in from other clubs. Front rowers of the likes of Ward, Fairleigh, Britt, Cayless - again brought in from elsewhere. With the exception of Wellens, Cunningham, Roby, Graham and Lomax....who else can you say has come through the system to hold their own in that bracket. As good as our younger sides are, we do seem to produce a certain kind if player. If you want real top class match winners, I think a lot of it is luck, but it comes down to a recruitment strategy that can spot talent but also a club that is prepared to do anything to get their man.

When Crusaders folded, are you telling me there was nobody worth taking a punt on? All the other clubs were circling but we seemingly sat back and watched. Sammut surely would have been worth a look? Why have we never been in the hunt for Danny Brough at any stage of his career? Don't get me going on why Greg Eden ended up at HKR. There is only so much you can do from within, the likelihood of Saints having a squad full of future top class international talent sat in the u19's is remote to say the least, so we need to be looking elsewhere to bolster what we have. Yes we have been in transition since the glory years but our lack of recruitment over the last 4-5 years has been shocking and nobody at the club can deny that. The issue for me is that we will lose fans if the team continues on the same downward spiral when it comes to playing talent. The problems we are facing, with a lack halves and decent front rowers is our own making. Poor recruitment decisions that are coming back to haunt us. Unless NB is given a broom and a blank cheque book at the end of the season, I fear we may be in the same situation in 2-3 years time.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:41 am  

I was saying in the first half yesterday when Wigan were actually moving up in a line that there was nobody in the Saints side who I felt could pull off that bit of magic and create something like a Long, Martyn, Sculthorpe or Lyon might have. Your only attacking move was an offload, most of which you dropped and you bombed the two big chances you got.

Second half we let you back into the game and you made a few breaks and caused us a few problems which TBH disappointed me slightly because we made what should have been a simple win look difficult.

Why on Earth you've let Gaskell go I have no idea. Has he been up to no good? He murdered us in the playoffs in 2011 and quite why you've been picking the likes of Hohaia, Wilkin and now even Wellens ahead of him in the halves is as big a mystery as where Lord Lucan went.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:02 am  

There is a lack of quality throughout Super League. The likes of Scully, Long, Cunningham and Lyon are once in a generation players especially playing together at the same time. Compare this Wigan side to the one 10 years ago it is nowhere near as good. They had the likes of Radlinski, Renouf, Dallas, Lam, Furner, Farrell, Newton and many others. We have been unfortunate over the past few years in our retention and recruitment. With hindsight we may have kept Smith, but I was in the get rid camp, not good enough for Saints. We had Eastmond just bursting on the scene back then, we still had Leon, Wheeler and Gaskell looked like they were going to be class. If Eamonn had a crystal ball he may have offered him a deal, he doesn't he has a salary cap to adhere to, professional sport is brutal, even more so with a strict and small salary cap.

Re: McManus - Squad - Half Backs : Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:28 am  

F4RSH wrote:

There is a lack of quality throughout Super League. The likes of Scully, Long, Cunningham and Lyon are once in a generation players especially playing together at the same time. Compare this Wigan side to the one 10 years ago it is nowhere near as good. They had the likes of Radlinski, Renouf, Dallas, Lam, Furner, Farrell, Newton and many others. We have been unfortunate over the past few years in our retention and recruitment. With hindsight we may have kept Smith, but I was in the get rid camp, not good enough for Saints. We had Eastmond just bursting on the scene back then, we still had Leon, Wheeler and Gaskell looked like they were going to be class. If Eamonn had a crystal ball he may have offered him a deal, he doesn't he has a salary cap to adhere to, professional sport is brutal, even more so with a strict and small salary cap.

The issue is that its not a one off. We let Long go because we had Eastmond, but we told Long and Smith to go, before we nailed Eastmond down long term. So Eastmond then held us over a barrell and just signed a 2 year deal. That is poor negotiating by any standard, we should have sealed Eastmond to 4 year before telling Long and Smith to go. I also felt that Eastmond was more an individual than an organiser and his kicking game was limited, so it still left us unbalanced.

Even if Union had come in after 2 years, with a longer deal, we could have gone shopping with any buy out from Union.

Leon from the reports on here wanted a 3 year deal, we could all see Eastmond was going and only had Lomax and Gaskell left, who at that time were not at their best. So Pryce left and we then went and offered Lance (not a half) a 4 year deal, to take him well into his 30's at a position that we have let so many good players leave. After telling Long and other that we don't do more than 1 year deals for over 30's. (that's been thrown out now. ie Manu)

We also let Ellis go during this time.

Now with only bare bones left we have let Gaskell go. Leaving us with one injured half.

So we have in the last 3 years let go of

Long, SMith, Ellis, Pryce, Eastmond, Gaskell. That's an embarrasment of riches!