Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:41 am  

The Chair Maker wrote:

However I suspect the backline will probably look like this for most games

Wellens
Makinson
Turner
Meli
Foster

Meli and Turner give us good pace and power on the first tackle option following a kick return. This then can put the defending team on the backfoot, allowing Roby or whoever goes into dummy half to either scoot or bring the forwards into play on the next play.

Agreed, but Meli can't do this returning from centre... We have no kick return from Wello so the wingers need to shoulder this burden instead. With Wellens, Makinson and Foster carting the kick returns up you might as well just give us a 2nd tackle on our 10 every set of six... Meli must play on the wing preferably with Gardner on the other side to give us the momentum you speak of - the above 3/4 line would be every opposition kicking game's dream.

The Chair Maker wrote:

The halves is another toughy. Basically we can go for Lomax, Gaskell, Wheeler and Hohoia.
I think Lomax is a bang on certainty. I'd be tempted to pair him with Wheeler.

No way - Lomax and Gaskell are way too similar to work as a partnership and would be little better than Hohaia/Lomax has been. If one plays in the halves then the other must place centre or fullback. Gaskell is unfortonately the only player we have at the moment with the skillset to create a balanced half back partnership with Lomax or Wheeler, even though he's not ready yet to assume the mantle of our primary organiser and creator (and may never be). I think Wheeler is the more natural half and could take more of the load off Gaskell while he's learning the trade so that would be the pairing to go for if Wheeler gets his head in the game next year. I reckon we'll be seeing a Lomax/Gaskell partnership with Wheeler intemittently in the centres however.

Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:34 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Agreed, but Meli can't do this returning from centre... We have no kick return from Wello so the wingers need to shoulder this burden instead. With Wellens, Makinson and Foster carting the kick returns up you might as well just give us a 2nd tackle on our 10 every set of six... Meli must play on the wing preferably with Gardner on the other side to give us the momentum you speak of - the above 3/4 line would be every opposition kicking game's dream.

That why I've picked Turner and Gardner on the wings.
Meli in the centre is perfect for me, all of his strengths, none of his weaknesses - he's one of the most dangerous 3/4s in the league and I'd rather have him in one, getting the ball and creating chances for us.
Turner has been questioned as to his defensive positioning in the centre channel and tackling capababilities, so starting him on the wing will tone any weakness down, whilst still giving us a big athletic lad on the wing to finish and return kicks.
Garner's kick returning when he was fit last year was awesome. Whether he could sustain it for a season is a question mark, I guess, but worth a start for this reason. He's pretty good under kicks, too, when in the zone.

Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:24 am  

I will be very surprised if Wello isnt at 1 all year. at some point we have to try someone else there be it Makinson, lomax, Ashe? as the regular season means nothing anyway we might as well try different people there

Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:22 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Agreed, but Meli can't do this returning from centre... We have no kick return from Wello so the wingers need to shoulder this burden instead. With Wellens, Makinson and Foster carting the kick returns up you might as well just give us a 2nd tackle on our 10 every set of six... Meli must play on the wing preferably with Gardner on the other side to give us the momentum you speak of - the above 3/4 line would be every opposition kicking game's dream.
.

I agree that having a strong kick return from Wingers is a useful bonus. However i think Saints in recent years have become obsessed with it to the detriment of having a balanced backline. As a result we have had little or no flair and pace outwide.
I also think that people can become blind to thinking that a kick return starts and finishes with the fullback or wings on the immediate play in which they receive the ball. In reality the kick return encompasses the entire set of 6 tackles and includes the kick on the final tackle.

Foster and Makinson dont possess the power to come infield and make a rampaging run on the first tackle like Meli and Gardner, however this does not mean they cannot make yards on the kick return. Its more of a case that when they come into tackle contact they are easily put to ground. The key then is what happens on the next play. With Shenton and Wheeler at centre as per the last couple of years, Saints had to resort to using forwards as neither of those two players possessed any physical presence to undertake a damaging dummy half run following the kick return by Makinson or Foster.
Move forward to next season however, and Jordan Turner is a strong fast bloke who can support the forwards workload going forward. Meli or Josh Jones also possess the physical presence to actually get on top of a defending side and get the defenders on the backfoot from the centre positions.
Hence i feel that the combination of initial kick return followed by next tackle play presents the opportunity to make more metres in return than has been the case in recent years.

Its also wrong to state Wello doesnt possess kick return, he does. The issue is that he doesnt present an attacking threat from deep due to his lack of pace. Stick with Gardner and Meli out wide on the wings and all three backs have no threat from distance. Go with Foster and Makinson however and they do present options in that they can both go 60 to 70 metres if the opportunity presents itself.

One other thing worth considering is that its not beyond the realms of possibility that the coach would for example play Turner at Centre but have him dropping back on the fifth tackle to cover kick returns.

Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:49 pm  

Nathan Brown rates Josh Jones very highly, I'm certain he will feature.

Re: Starting 17 : Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:22 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

Nathan Brown rates Josh Jones very highly, I'm certain he will feature.

Oh he will definitely feature. However i dont know if he will get as much exposure as this year. I'm worried about second season syndrome.

I personally think Nathan Brown will be very excited to work with the Saints players, as he has far more to work with than that at Huddersfield.

We should therefore see what he is truly made of on the coaching front.

Re: Starting 17 : Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:08 pm  

Not nessasarily a starting 17, but a side I would like to see for a match or 2 this year.

Lomax
Turner
Meli
Jones
Makinson
Gaskell
Lance
Perry
Roby
TP
Laffranchi
Manu
Wilkin

Sia
Warmsley
LMS
Wellens

( with wellens possibly coming in to do some work at loose or SR, he's played for years at FB, I'd like to see him in another role to see how he goes. People say he is FB or nothing, but how do we know unless we give him a run out there)

It's a big enough pack to take some experiementation and Wellens I would suggest could offer more in attack than Flannery ever did in the years he was placed there.
Wellens has played centre for GB and was perfectly fine if not outstanding there, so I think he could be more versitle than people give him credit for.

Also having a back on the bench who can pack down, gives us the flexibility that Royce wanted, without the 80mins of a player doing nothing.

We used to have a jack of all trades in Phil Vivers if I remember correctly, who could basically cover any position apart from prop. I have nothing against a back on the bench so long as they are used in the pack to share the load if they are not needed in the backs.

An injury to anyother back position and Wellens drops into centre/ FB and others can move too during the match. Lomax to half or wing, meli to wing etc etc.

Re: Starting 17 : Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:52 pm  

All we definitely know is that he doesn't see Hohaia as a half-back in any shape or form, he said as much live on the BBC last year. Probably leaves him on the bench covering at 9 but I can see him getting some starts at fullback. He brings a different threat than Wellens in that you would expect him to get the ball to the outside backs more often. Wellens has scored a lot of tries but I think it's fair to say he butchered a fair few too with his link distribution or lack thereof. Hohaia is guilty of this too but would get a bit more room wider out and I could see our left edge especially getting a lot more tries if we tried this.

No problems in the forwards were we have quality and depth. Lomax 6 and Gaskell 7 would be my starting combo, with Wheeler covering if he were ever able to. Choices too in the backline but not much by way of quality. I like Makinson and Jones but the rest have plenty to prove, hopefully there will be decent competition for places between the remainder.

Wellens
Makinson
Turner
Jones
Gardner/Meli/Foster
Lomax
Gaskell
Perry
Roby
Puletua
Manu
Laffranchi
Wilkin

Hohaia
Soliola
Clough
LMS

Re: Starting 17 : Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:20 pm  

A back 3 of Wellens, Gardner and Meli was proven to be not good enough for us to win anything in 2007, and 2008, and 2009. Why will it be good enough in 2013?

As a combination they are too slow and the wingers are mistake ridden, often costing us as many points as they get us. I see the positives with Meli and a move to centre would, IMO allow us his positives and rid of us of his glaring weakness, catching a high ball.

Gardner is no better at 30 than either Makinson or Foster, and they bring us speed or points via kicking. At least their weaknesses can be attributed to inexperience and can hopefully be ironed out of their game. After 10 years, I've given up hope that Gardner will do the same.

Both are beyond reserve rugby and should be in the first team, we should have got rid if Gardner 2 years ago instead of giving him a new contract.

Re: Starting 17 : Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:31 pm  

Dont know the rationale behind some people suggesting playing Turner on the wing.

The guy has only played wing once in his entire professional career and that was in 2007 when he was 17 years old and making only his third appearance.

Other than that he has been at centre for 78 games, standoff 10 games, Loose forward 3 games, and fullback 1 game.
He has played from the bench 14 times. Mostly when a kid at Salford.

At centre he has scored 34 trys in those 78 appearances.