Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:23 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Can you lot tell me what Wellens does exactly? Is it just the fact that he doesn't drop bombs very often that makes you think he'd be better at fullback than Hohaia (A world cup winning fullback), Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax? Is it just the absence of errors that makes you feel comfortable with him there?

Wellens does everything that you would expect of a fullback with 10 years experience.
His positional sense is probably his best attribute, this makes his lack of blistering pace less of a problem than it would be.
His one on one tackling is as good as anyones in an exposed position and better than most.
His ability to join the line at just the right time is evident by the number of trys and assists he has this season
His experience to guide his team round the park
His kick returns are generally sound and make ground, his evasive qualities keep him away from the opposition more times than he gets tackled easily - this gives the team time to regroup.
He also is very sound under the kick - dont be-little that skill as players have been crucified in this team for not being.

What I can tell you is that Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax have none of those attributes - could some learn them? probably, would that happen by placing them in the first team at fullback? it would be far more likely that the number of errors they would make at that level would criple them confidence wise - so the way they would learn is A team rugby, the coaching staff do seem to be trying different options at fullback in the A team - it doesnt look like they have found anyone ready to slot into that position yet.
Your thoughts of putting anyone there ahead of Wellens is based on a guess that it might work. Thank God that the coaching staff have a better process to find out if they can play there first. But the obvious point is that people playing regular first team will not get this chance unless you decide to leave them out of first team rugby to learn a different position - and thats not a luxury we can afford at the moment.
As for Hohaia - I assume you did see his performance in the full back role at the beggining of the season - what did you see there that could possibly make him the man for the job?

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:46 pm  

St. Etrigan wrote:

His ability to join the line at just the right time is evident by the number of trys and assists he has this season

Not entirely. I have watched Wello in the latter part of this season and he does the same thing pretty much every game: he gets the ball (from whoever passes it to him) runs down the left channel and keeps trying to score until he does. He very rarely passes it to his centre, even when a try looks more likely by doing so. The ball more often than not dies with Wello in our 20, when he is involved. He has scored as many tries as he has in part because he doesn't pass within our 20. If he passed more often then IMO he would score fewer but others would score more.

It was under Royce that Wello developed the attacking side to his game. That isn't me making stuff up; Wello himself said in an interview that Royce had asked him to play as a third halfback to help out what were then two very raw actual halfbacks in Gaskell and Lomax. It worked a treat under Royce because Wello was less inclined to hold on to the ball and varied when and where he chimed in. But this season he is as predictable as the weather and that has made him frustrating to watch and IMO less effective in attack.

Playing as an attacking fullback isn't his natural style. He is a defensive fullback and it is in his defence where all his attributes lie. I also don't think he is a good captain but that is because he complains so much without the accompanying firing up of his team mates that Jammer used to bring to the party (and that balanced up HIS propensity to complain).

What I can tell you is that Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax have none of those attributes - could some learn them?

Wello will not have been as able a fullback when he started as he is now. Young players, like Wello himself once was, only learn their trade by playing once they have mastered the basic skills. Makinson IMO has shown good signs of game awareness but if he isn't played at fullback he will never learn how to become a better fullback. I can't comment on Swift or Gaskell at fullback because I've not seen either play there. I've only seen Lomax play there once I think and that was ages ago.

As for Hohaia - I assume you did see his performance in the full back role at the beggining of the season - what did you see there that could possibly make him the man for the job?

Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:36 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Not entirely. I have watched Wello in the latter part of this season and he does the same thing pretty much every game: he gets the ball (from whoever passes it to him) runs down the left channel and keeps trying to score until he does. He very rarely passes it to his centre, even when a try looks more likely by doing so. The ball more often than not dies with Wello in our 20, when he is involved. He has scored as many tries as he has in part because he doesn't pass within our 20. If he passed more often then IMO he would score fewer but others would score more.

He doesnt only run down one channel - he runs down the left mainly due to the natural ability of players to pass to the left - however he has also been very effective at running down the right channel, taking inside balls etc. he has 10 assists (prior to Friday) which is the 3rd highest in the team
Does he get it right every time? No
Does he get it right more often than he doesnt? with 20 tries and 10 assists I would say yes

SaintsFan wrote:

It was under Royce that Wello developed the attacking side to his game. That isn't me making stuff up; Wello himself said in an interview that Royce had asked him to play as a third halfback to help out what were then two very raw actual halfbacks in Gaskell and Lomax. It worked a treat under Royce because Wello was less inclined to hold on to the ball and varied when and where he chimed in. But this season he is as predictable as the weather and that has made him frustrating to watch and IMO less effective in attack.

I dont think you are making stuff up and Royce may have asked him to ammend his style - but he has been scoring try's concistently since 2005 and one of his worst returns for try's was last year with 14 so his old style was working for him also. Perhaps the change in style was more centered around helping young players rather than improving his own play? just a thought

SaintsFan wrote:

Playing as an attacking fullback isn't his natural style. He is a defensive fullback and it is in his defence where all his attributes lie.

I dont agree with the use of the word all when describing his sum of attributes. You are right that he is a natural defensive fullback - but he has been scoring as many tries as most full backs since the turn of the century - and most years far more than you would expect from a fullback (these are off course the years before attack seems to be the number one priority looked for in a fullback rather than defence)

SaintsFan wrote:

I also don't think he is a good captain but that is because he complains so much without the accompanying firing up of his team mates that Jammer used to bring to the party (and that balanced up HIS propensity to complain).

I agree that as a captain he doesnt stand up against previous captains we have had

SaintsFan wrote:

Wello will not have been as able a fullback when he started as he is now. Young players, like Wello himself once was, only learn their trade by playing once they have mastered the basic skills. Makinson IMO has shown good signs of game awareness but if he isn't played at fullback he will never learn how to become a better fullback. I can't comment on Swift or Gaskell at fullback because I've not seen either play there. I've only seen Lomax play there once I think and that was ages ago.

We are talking different era's but what I do know is that Wellens's early appearances at full back would have earned him a 20 page topic on here looking for an alternative and comparing him unfavourably to every full back previously to play for Saints - he was that bad, his game at Gateshead was atrocious - nowadays he would have been immediatly dropped - different era's - different needs

SaintsFan wrote:

Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done.

Dont think that at any time I am suggesting that Hohaia is a bad player - there are no players who are playing professional rugby league who are bad players. But once you turn professional the measure you have to come up against is much higher. Some blow that measure away and some fall far short of it. Some have a limited talent and make the most of it and some just get plain lucky. I definately think that Hohaia stands in the last category - he works hard at getting the most out of what he has but has also managed to drop lucky with some of his selections. There are plenty of players out there who have medals because of the side they were in - I dont use that as a yard stick to judge how good they are, I prefer to look how they play currently - and for this year Lance Hohaia is not playing well in any position he is put in.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:31 pm  

I think Wello has had a mixed season. That positional sense that he is well known for did seam to have slipped in some games. There were years ( or so it seamed) when a kick in the air never hit the ground at Saints. Hence Wellens Bomb disposal flag.

This year there have been a few occasions where it has been more noticable that balls kicked up for the FB have been left to bounce rather than been taken on the full. Also there have been occasions where breaks have gone through the Saints line and the player going through has just ghosted past Wellens, the worst being Hock. A FB does not have to be fast to get in the face of a player coming forwards, if Hock could burn Wellens off on the angle, then it did get me worrying.

A season is a long time in RL though and Wellens has been having some decent games too. As I said I thought he did alot right yesterday and saying he just runs down the left does not justify the input into the game yesterday. He was MOM for me yesterday.

But the big thing for me is the future, when Wellens came in it was to replace patch who also was becoming pedestrain in defence on high kicks and chasing down a man going through a broken line. We blooded Wellens and the FB slot at Saints was solid for a decade.

At the moment we seam to be denying possible replacements the same oppertunity we gave wellens and so we could be letting future FB's pass us by and the chance to develop their skills in that role too. I would not say every game but some games I would have liked to see possible future FB's given the oppertunity to develop that role. Who better to learn the game from than one of the best FB's in SL.

My fear is we play Wellens until it's way beyond him then throw in candidate after candidate with no Wellens to Fallback on or learn from. The difficulty is if Wellens does not play FB, to give another guy a chance to get that first grade experience, then where do we play him??

2nd Row/LF?
Centre?
Bench?

I don't think he is a one trick pony and he could play another role. My hope is that Brown likes to be a tinker man and he will move Wellens about a bit to see where else he may contribute and who else maybe the long term replacement at FB.

I can understand Rush and Cunningham not doing this as they have nothing to gain with experimenting with a side that is not theirs to mess with.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:39 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

I think Wello has had a mixed season. That positional sense that he is well known for did seam to have slipped in some games. There were years ( or so it seamed) when a kick in the air never hit the ground at Saints. Hence Wellens Bomb disposal flag.

This year there have been a few occasions where it has been more noticable that balls kicked up for the FB have been left to bounce rather than been taken on the full. Also there have been occasions where breaks have gone through the Saints line and the player going through has just ghosted past Wellens, the worst being Hock. A FB does not have to be fast to get in the face of a player coming forwards, if Hock could burn Wellens off on the angle, then it did get me worrying.

That's a good point. Wello isn't getting the criticism from other people he was a couple of years ago when he dropping every bomb that went his way, simply because he's now not even reaching them. It's the same with tries, in the good old days at KR, he have made try saving tackles almost every game and certainly every big game. Now a Wellens tackle is a rare occurance, again because he doesn't get there anymore.

I would LOVE someone to do an analysis of the tries we've conceded this season and where Wello was when it happened. He almost always arrives at the scene as the try scorer is getting up, and takes it out on the referee. The mindless Saints fans then don't see him miss a tackle, so don't put a black mark in his book.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:03 pm  

For people who reckon Wellens is NOT an attacking full back:

Wellens this season:
Is the clubs highest try scorer
Is the clubs highest for tackle busts.
Is in second place to Meli for clean breaks.

And for consistency he has scored 210 career tries as well.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:09 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

For people who reckon Wellens is NOT an attacking full back:

Wellens this season:
Is the clubs highest try scorer
Is the clubs highest for tackle busts.
Is in second place to Meli for clean breaks.

Have you compared those stats to other fullbacks in superleague?

He is bound to be our highest try scorer. He never passes out within the 20 until he scores one himself. On one occasion I counted three of his failed attempts to cross the line in one match when had he passed the ball instead of trying for the line himself we would likely have scored. He scored eventually but meanwhile potentially deprived the team of three tries. He does this in each match, although not necessarily to the same degree. It drives me nuts sometimes when I'm watching because he is putting the result at risk.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:32 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Have you compared those stats to other fullbacks in superleague?

He is bound to be our highest try scorer. He never passes out within the 20 until he scores one himself. On one occasion I counted three of his failed attempts to cross the line in one match when had he passed the ball instead of trying for the line himself we would likely have scored. He scored eventually but meanwhile potentially deprived the team of three tries. He does this in each match, although not necessarily to the same degree. It drives me nuts sometimes when I'm watching because he is putting the result at risk.

Yes, by comparison on attributes he is the 4th best full back in super league behind Tomkins - Hardaker - Eden, very close to 3rd place Eden.

Failed attempts you could say that for quite a few players, but as rightly pointed out by other posters he has taken on extra responsibility due to our half backs deficiency. I think people are clutching at straws to try and justify his de selection when in reality at the moment he is still the best option at full back, sooner or later if it be Makinson or Swift for No 1, it will be done at risk which we can ill afford until the cavalry arrives.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:47 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

That's a good point. Wello isn't getting the criticism from other people he was a couple of years ago when he dropping every bomb that went his way, simply because he's now not even reaching them. It's the same with tries, in the good old days at KR, he have made try saving tackles almost every game and certainly every big game. Now a Wellens tackle is a rare occurance, again because he doesn't get there anymore.

I would LOVE someone to do an analysis of the tries we've conceded this season and where Wello was when it happened. He almost always arrives at the scene as the try scorer is getting up, and takes it out on the referee. The mindless Saints fans then don't see him miss a tackle, so don't put a black mark in his book.

There was a 2nd part to that post of mine.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:14 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

Yes, by comparison on attributes he is the 4th best full back in super league behind Tomkins - Hardaker - Eden, very close to 3rd place Eden.

That would be Eden who is in his debut year? Hardaker too (at fullback anyway).

I think people are clutching at straws to try and justify his de selection when in reality at the moment he is still the best option at full back, sooner or later if it be Makinson or Swift for No 1, it will be done at risk which we can ill afford until the cavalry arrives.

Really? I seem to remember Makinson did fine at fullback in the Grand Final. In fact, we were winning while he was playing there. I rather think you underestimate Makinson.

I think we are being left behind.