Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:26 am  

wakey_saint wrote:

Chris Hill being the exception...when Catalans signed Dureau Kyle Eastmond was replacing Long as our 7 and without a crystal ball to tell the future, we didnt know he was going to move to union. Same with Atkins, when Wire signed him we had Gidley and Talau in centres and we wouldnt have played him in front of either of them. Watts is another Scott Moore and often finds himself in trouble so I doubt we would look at him, Lynch (whilst a good player) is past his best now and wont be long til he retires. As for Hardaker...what planet are you on? I live in Leeds and a lot of my good mates are Leeds fans and even they moan about him not being good enough (apart from a handful of games this season) so why would we want him? The players you have mentioned there were no better than what we had at the time they were available (with the exception of Ellis but I am more than happy with Manu signing and Ellis has struggled with injuries of late) so why would we have gone for them?

As for the best youngsters leaving the club over the last 6-7 years, Eastmond went to RU and we let Smith go who has done OK at Salford and moved to Wigan...other than that which youngsters have we let go that have gone on and proved that we should have kept them? Only one I would have kept is Jake Emmitt tbh who looks wasted at Cas.

Dont get me wrong, I would love nothing more than for us to sign world class players like Lyon, Sculthorpe etc again but if those players arent available at the moment there is nothing we can do about it. IMO we have a squad which is capable of beating Warrington (as we showed earlier in season) and I think we can also challenge Wigan in the playoffs, sat 3rd in the league and still in a transitional phase after losing Long, KC, Scully, Graham and moving to a new stadium...things could be a lot worse for us

Hear, hear. It's utter fantasy to talk about all the great players moving clubs that we should be signing. There are very, very few. And we're not the only club desperate to fill vital positions and having to make do with mediocrity for the time being as there is simply nothing better available. Look who's going to be filling the #7 shirt at Wigan next season. Has Wigan's recruitment "failed" too? No - they're simply stuck in the same boat as we are and that every other club is of having to make do. Leeds and Warrington will join us in that boat once their major players start retiring over the next few seasons too. And even if there were loads of great players available - what kind of one-eyed arrogance is it to suggest that Saints should be signing every single one of them? There are 13 other clubs on the market for any players around (at super inflated prices relative to their worth given the lack of talent out there) and Saints have no God-given right to win a bidding war for every single one of them...

We are a couple of players and a good coach away from competing at the top level again. That fact may disappoint the knee-jerkers who want an excuse to start ripping at their clothes and wailing about our desperate plight and need to drown all of our current first team squad in the 'Otties and sign any and every second rate journeyman that comes on the auction block to replace them, but fact it still is. Deal with it.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:29 am  

wakey_saint wrote:

Chris Hill being the exception...when Catalans signed Dureau Kyle Eastmond was replacing Long as our 7 and without a crystal ball to tell the future, we didnt know he was going to move to union. Same with Atkins, when Wire signed him we had Gidley and Talau in centres and we wouldnt have played him in front of either of them. Watts is another Scott Moore and often finds himself in trouble so I doubt we would look at him, Lynch (whilst a good player) is past his best now and wont be long til he retires. As for Hardaker...what planet are you on? I live in Leeds and a lot of my good mates are Leeds fans and even they moan about him not being good enough (apart from a handful of games this season) so why would we want him? The players you have mentioned there were no better than what we had at the time they were available (with the exception of Ellis but I am more than happy with Manu signing and Ellis has struggled with injuries of late) so why would we have gone for them?

As for the best youngsters leaving the club over the last 6-7 years, Eastmond went to RU and we let Smith go who has done OK at Salford and moved to Wigan...other than that which youngsters have we let go that have gone on and proved that we should have kept them? Only one I would have kept is Jake Emmitt tbh who looks wasted at Cas.

Dont get me wrong, I would love nothing more than for us to sign world class players like Lyon, Sculthorpe etc again but if those players arent available at the moment there is nothing we can do about it. IMO we have a squad which is capable of beating Warrington (as we showed earlier in season) and I think we can also challenge Wigan in the playoffs, sat 3rd in the league and still in a transitional phase after losing Long, KC, Scully, Graham and moving to a new stadium...things could be a lot worse for us

They could be a lot worse, but if we follow the club's method of not being ambitious with signings, which you seem to support, we'll never get any better. Unless we sign someone for next season, which you suggest we shouldn't, we're not going to improve. Manu is a decent signing, but at 33 he's not a long term solution and his improvement over Flannery is counterbalanced by the downgrade of Shenton for Turner. We'll still be lacking in the front row and we'll still be lacking in the halves and we'll still be lacking massively at fullback.

The current crop of youngsters, Wheeler, Gaskell, Makinson. Clough, Dixon etc are all looking very average players at the moment. We are ruining Makinson in particular, he should have taken Wellens' place two years ago yet is still on the wing and it's questionable whether he'd have played at all this season had Gardner not got injured.

There isn't the basis of a good side there at the moment. The key positions are 1,6,7,8,9,10 for me and we're only doing well in one of those positions currently with Robes at 9.

Super League is so utterly awful that the academy could probably finish mid table, but the fact we're third shouldn't be a comfort blanket.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:34 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Super League is so utterly awful that the academy could probably finish mid table...

...and yet that league is apparently stuffed full with quality players better than we currently have up for grabs that we should be signing to replace them....

Do you want to have a little think about your logic there for a few minutes matey?

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:45 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

...and yet that league is apparently stuffed full with quality players better than we currently have up for grabs that we should be signing to replace them....

Do you want to have a little think about your logic there for a few minutes matey?

When did I say it was stuffed with them? I said there were enough about for us to make decent progress towards building a squad. Look at Warrington's rise, they are under the same cap as we are yet they are capable of pulling off the signings of Hill (Who looks like he will become as good as Graham), Ratchford, Atkins etc who would all waltz into our side and who would all improve us significantly. Huddersfield also made some very impressive signings to improve their squad over the years.

Why aren't we signing the likes of Eden, Atkins, Ratchford, Hill, Broughton, Hardaker? If we don't make these signings, we won't ever get the next Long, Cunningham, Sculthorpe etc. We seem to have this blind faith in our youth system, but it's producing SL squad players, but no real quality of late.

Professional sport should be about trying to win. We seem far too comfortable with planning for stable mediocrity right now. There doesn't seem to be any commitment to creating a winning side again.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:50 am  

The likes of Bateman and Copkzak seem to be headed the way of Warrington and Huddersfield. Bateman is another fantastic prospect who we're not in the race for. Another potentially great signing for Warrington. Sure we can't sign them all and they won't all blossom into all-time greats, but when clubs like Warrington are signing 4 or 5 like that they are added players to their squad that will be there for 10+ years potentially and forming the backbone of a squad that could rumble on for a decade. Wigan have a far better youth system than we do so are producing Tomkins' and Charnleys etc. So do we just accept that they are better than us and not bother?

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:53 am  

wakey_saint wrote:

Chris Hill

Yes, we missed out.

Atkins

I wouldn't have touched him with a barge pole, tbh. Too much work to do in terms of his centre game. Wire had a lot of depth in the 3/4s at the time with King and Bridge so could take on a bit of a project.

Watts is another Scott Moore and often finds himself in trouble

I agree, but would have like us to take a punt on him. I think getting him over this side of the pennines might have been a struggle, though.

Lynch

Lynch would have been a near perfect replacement for Graham, I reckon. A good captain too. Laffranchi's money would have been better spent on him, to be brutal.

Hardaker

signed as a youngster as a project, so Leeds have developed him into the player he is.

Ellis

Would have been very expensive and pursued by many clubs.

Emmitt

Looks good, but good enough to make a difference to our position?

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:06 am  

Saddened! wrote:

...but when clubs like Warrington are signing 4 or 5 like that...

Warrington are seemingly operating to a different rulebook to the rest of the league financially it's very true but it's unfair to compare them to us in that regard as we just simply don't have that kind of money to throw around (or more to the point hide in legal loopholes) and noone else does either Leeds possibly apart. Compared to the rest of the league I still don't see how we're doing that badly with regard to our recruitment and, to hammer the point home again, you can't sign everybody... In just the last couple of years we've won an expensive bidding war on a current first choice GB international 3/4, signed a couple of recent past Aussie internationals and nabbed maybe the best second row in the league over the last few seasons. This apparent lack of ambition and contentment with mediocrity is just myth. You can question the judgment but you can't question the intent.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:14 am  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Doomed! We're all doomed!
Without throwing the baby out with the bath water, and bearing in mind we're in a salary capped sport, i'd suggest the following

For the backs-
Sign a big winger and move Meli into the centre to replace shenton.
Sign an experienced half back who can organise play from 7 and, most importantly, can kick the ball. Ship Hohaia to make room - I'm sure, given the salary cap situation in Aus, there's a club that match his wages with us. I'm sure I've heard names like Hornby and Prince banded about as available.
If we do the above and assume Ade Gardner can start playing again, then we will potentially have Lomax, Gaskell, Makinson, Wheeler and Swift to fill the #1 and #6 shirt.
Wellens to leave. Whilst he's playing ok at the moment - certainly scoring tries, he in many ways embodies our predicament; good enough to see of the mediocre competetion easily, but now inneffective against the elite.

For the forwards-
Move Laffranchi to 13 and ship out Wilkin. Whilst I have a lot of repect for his contribution and I know he has a lot of abilities, his utilty value not only dilutes his own game because of the way we use him, but it compunds the problem that we lack bite and forward direction. You may also be able to get a few quid for him.
A starting pack of Perry, Roby, Puletua, Sia, Manu and Boof is massive.
Next, sign one more forward who is HARD, someone who has big balls and likes to get amongst the oppo. Someone who, the harder you hit him, the harder he runs the next time - like Fozzy used to do for us, like westwood does for wire. Someone who comes of the bench and makes the opposition crowd/team think "Oh Bugger!" and the home crowd/team think "Here we go!"

We're not far off, assuming we get some good coaching. Players like McCarthey and Grix are far from world beaters, but they played their part in shalacking us t'other day, because the Wire squad is playing well as a whole. We get that and do the above things I suggest, then we'll be a real threat to the title.

100% agree with this.

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:49 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Warrington are seemingly operating to a different rulebook to the rest of the league financially it's very true but it's unfair to compare them to us in that regard as we just simply don't have that kind of money to throw around .

That's a big allegation you are making there. Warrington aren't cheating the cap, they are just better at developing a squad than we are.

Whoever decided it was a good move to sign Lance Hohaia needs to be removed from the club, if they've not already left. The signings of Flanagan and Laffranchi as a prop have also turned out to be terrible. Perhaps you are right, we're just doing a poor job of developing a squad. But whatever the cause, surely not signing players can't be the way out of it?

Re: Who to keep. : Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:04 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

The likes of Bateman and Copkzak seem to be headed the way of Warrington and Huddersfield. Bateman is another fantastic prospect who we're not in the race for. Another potentially great signing for Warrington. Sure we can't sign them all and they won't all blossom into all-time greats, but when clubs like Warrington are signing 4 or 5 like that they are added players to their squad that will be there for 10+ years potentially and forming the backbone of a squad that could rumble on for a decade. Wigan have a far better youth system than we do so are producing Tomkins' and Charnleys etc. So do we just accept that they are better than us and not bother?

Bateman is a back rower and we definitely dont need any more of them...he wouldnt play in front of Soliola, Manu, Wilkin or Flanagan and would command big money due to him being in demand which I think would be more than he is currently worth. If what I have heard is correct, Hull have offered massive money to Bateman and he will sign there for next season.

As for other clubs signing players as a project, Turner has been signed as a project - a good young player with a lot of work to do but the potential to develop into a quality player - and nobody seems happy because he isnt a world class signing. For me, Flanagan is still young and developing and he is more of a project for the time being, but in 2/3 years will become a fantastic back rower for us.

As for half backs, look back to the start of the season when Royce used Lance at 1, 9 and sub to accomodate Lomax and Gaskell...we had no direction around the park, looked lost and were losing to teams we should be beating comfortably. This highlighted for me that, whilst they have ptoential to develop into a great 6 or 7 partnership they lack the experience collectively to do it regularly at the highest level. Like it or not, as a team and individually for Lomax, we have improved since Lance moved to 6 as he is experienced and knows how to organise. Whilst he may not be the best 6 we have ever had, there is nobody on the market that is available to come in and play 6 any better for us so its a no-win situation there.

We lost Jammer (who did the work of 2 front rowers for us) and was never going to be able to replace him and therefore our front row could do with a big, strong front rower to make yards galore and look at 30+ tackles a game...but realistically who fits that bill? I would love a creative stand off/scrum half who can rip teams apart on his own...but again who is available? I long for the days of a Lyon/Gidley flair centre to make one of our wingers score tries for fun...are any available?

We can all dream about signing this player/that player, but if there isnt the talent available its a non starter. And for the Wellens out crowd, what are your thoughts to the super Warrington re-signing Brett Hodgson for 2 years? Obviously they are a club that only sign the best players and we should be like them, yet Hodgson's stats for this season compared to Wello:

Wellens - 14 Tries, 10 Assists, 56 Tackle Busts, 321 Carries, 2139 Metres, 121 Metres Av. Gain, 12 Clean Breaks, 12 Offloads, 9 Errors

Hodgson - 5 Tries, 11 Assists, 21 Tackle Busts, 186 Carries, 1219 Metres, 82 Metres Av. Gain, 4 Clean breaks, 7 Offloads, 12 Errors