Re: Manchester Massacre : Wed May 30, 2012 5:01 pm  

Man of Steel wrote:

Lets all be honest the title sums up what happened yestersday perfectly. I went yesterday actually expecting us to get beat by such a margin and as it happened that feeling was made into reality, in honesty I thought the scoreline flattered us!!

I really don't mind us losing, it happens. But what I can't accept is a performance like what Saints put out against Wigan. Wigan are a good side, light years ahead of us at the moment but we just can't be as bad as we were made to look on Sunday. We were made to look amateurish at times with the contrast in quality between the two sides. The speed, skill and sheer will to win was so obvious to see. We look like a mid table side at the moment with the occassional standout performance and the unfortunate thing is I can't see that changing with the personel we currently have in the side.

Wellens - I was critical of Wellens early in the season for lack of pace but what worried me more was his missed tackle on Hock which led to his try. Would Hock have scored that try 3-4 years ago? No he wouldn't because Wellens wouldn't have missed the tackle. Hock ran stright at him more or less and went straight through him. I really hope it's his last year, he doesn't deserve to be in this situation for everything he has done for this club. The guy is a legend and I don't want his reputation to be tarnished by going on longer than he should.

Lomax - I really do feel sorry for this kid. I like him in the halves (seems like I'm on my own in thinking this) but I see him more of a tradional 6, a runner, support player with the skill to put people through gaps. I don't get this talk of him being a 9 or 1 because he has never played there to warrant that argument. He has played on the wing and done a resonable job in taking the high ball and he has pretty good pace, but he has never really struck me as a full back. It's just my opinion but he wasn't voted the best young player in Super League last year in the halves for no reason. He just needs help from a good 7 who can organise and take the majority of the tactical play away from him and let him play with freedom and instinct. At the moment he is doing everything on the field for the side, with no help from Hohaia and it's way to much, so as a result his performances are slightly slipping. If we do get an organiser in the halves to help him watch him flourish.

The pack - are they just scared of Wigan? No other side is as aggreesive as them in Super League. They run hard and hit harder, they dominated Saints' pack and when it gets a bit violent they exert this even further by winning the fight - Mossop saw to that!!! From minute one yesterday Saints were over powered in every collison, they had no answer and at times it felt like Saints knew this. We need aggreesive players to match Wigan because if we lose the middle of the field it has a knock on effect as we then lose Roby. When we have played Wigan this season has anyone noticed James Roby? I haven't. He has no space to work because his pack is getting beaten up. We won't beat Wigan again until this changes.

I was going to say something on Lance Hohaia but what's the point???? I will say one thing though for the future. If he does get moved positions I hope he doesn't get used at 9 because from what I see of him at acting half, his distribution is just as bad as it is in open field. Watch him when he is filling in at times. The ball gets played, he picks it up, starts to stand up right, looks at who he is passing to, then pauses and then releases the ball - he has never passed off the floor once!!

Fans - I sometimes despair with some of our fans at times. I do actually wonder sometimes if they know the rules or have any rugby knowledge. Everyone pays their money and are more than entitled to their opinion but people just scream at everything, thinking that because the opposition get a penalty then it surely must be a penalty for Saints next. We all make mistakes at times and the refferees are actually human and can't see everything and will miss things, it's part and parcel of sport. Chris Flannery could give away one of his usual obvious penalties and people scream at the ref - why not scream at Chris Flannery? I had a bloke near me yesterday - a saints fan. Screaming and foaming at the mouth at Fancis Meli for not catching a Gary Wheeler pass that was so far forward I had more chance of catching it from behind the sticks!!!!! It's just things like this that do my head in.

I'm down hearted as a Saints fan at the moment. I've missed two games all season and I'll be there at the weekend hoping for a reaction from the performance at the weekend, if not for us - the fans but for the players themselves. They need to dust themselves down, start again and realise that they are professional players for a great club and performances like that are just not acceptable.

Good post but you have not mentioned Rush's and KFC's role in this! Let us also not forget that you were on a good run until this match - tinkering is the key not wholesale changes.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Wed May 30, 2012 7:09 pm  

Sweaty Betty's wrote:

Good post but you have not mentioned Rush's and KFC's role in this! Let us also not forget that you were on a good run until this match - tinkering is the key not wholesale changes.

It depends how you define "a good run". We were winning games but I think it was plainly obvious to the majority of Saints fans that if we came up against a quality side, like we did at the weekend then we would struggle. Yes we beat Leeds on the Monday, but I was one of the few that came away from the game pleased with the win but also dreading playing Wigan. We just can't reach that level at the moment.

You're correct tinkering with the squad is what is needed. It's not like we have a squad of 40 players and can change the whole team so we are limited with the changes we can make. Personally I'd only change 3 - 4 players to see what happens - it can't be any worse than the weekend. I'll do a side that I would like to see play Hull.

1. Wellens -
2. Gardner -
3. Wheeler - been in poor form since he came back from injury but it's either him or Shenton.
4. Jones - He has been "having a breather" in the U20's the last few weeks and hasn't been dropped. Time for him to come back into the side.
5. Makinson - if fit
6. Lomax
7. Gaskell - If only for his kicking in general play as without him our kicking game is shocking
8. Perry
9. Roby
10. Laffranchi
11. Soliola
12. Flanagan - if fit
13. Wilkin

14. Dixon
15 LMS
16. Clough
17. Puletua

People are obviously going to have different opinions but I think that side should be good enough to get the 2 points against Hull. It looks more balanced and moves the players who are in poor form away from the side. But like I said it's all completely objective.

In regards to the roles played by Cunningham and Mike Rush over the last couple of months. I think that they have both been forced into the roles they currently have at the club, not by management but by beliving that it was the best thing for the club at the time. They obviously love the club and have taken it on themselves to make the best out of a messy situation. With Royce going so early in the season they had no time to prepare themselves for the challenges that lay ahead, so they are basically having to learn on the spot and I think in the circumstances they have done really well. I compare their situation to that of Roy Hodgson the England football manager in Euro 2012. It's a free tournament for him as it's a free season for KC and Mike Rush - they aren't expected to create miracles they are being asked to steady the ship temporarily before future plans become reality. Us fans know this or at least I hope they do.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Wed May 30, 2012 8:47 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

That début season had such low expectations put on it that average performances seemed good.

Can't think of one then?

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 7:03 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Can't think of one then?

My point is that I don't think he had a great debut season and the fact he looked ok was because of the low expectations at the club at the time. A lot of other players contributed to last seasons exceptional end result, yet you seem to believe that Gaskell was really the only player who contributed. That is a massive disservice to all the other juniors who played last season. Bottom line is that Gaskell will never make a stand-off with enough quality to be at Saints for years. He is a modern day Mark Bailey, OK untill someone better comes along.

P.S. I think Jamie Foster and Jonny Lomax both had better debut seasons than Gaskell. If you want me to go back further I will have to put my thinking cap on because my memory ain't what it was. Cue the jokes.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 8:03 am  

Man of Steel wrote:

I'll do a side that I would like to see play Hull.

1. Wellens -
2. Gardner -
3. Wheeler - been in poor form since he came back from injury but it's either him or Shenton.
4. Jones - He has been "having a breather" in the U20's the last few weeks and hasn't been dropped. Time for him to come back into the side.
5. Makinson - if fit
6. Lomax
7. Gaskell - If only for his kicking in general play as without him our kicking game is shocking
8. Perry
9. Roby
10. Laffranchi
11. Soliola
12. Flanagan - if fit
13. Wilkin

14. Dixon
15 LMS
16. Clough
17. Puletua

I can see the logic here as there are wholesale changes that could be made, but making changes across the board could lead to some tragic reults against lesser sides than wigan. This keeps our core stable whilst offering some key attacking changes. other would go further and move lomax, wellens, meli, wilkin but that would cause so much disruption that it would be impossible to see improvements in any one area.

That's why i've not minded too much wheeler and lance getting an extended run, you can't see true form from a few minutes of a match, but a run of 10 matches will give you a better idea of what a player brings to a team across easy games, hard games as a team member and with individual actions.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 9:13 am  

Man of Steel wrote:

I'll do a side that I would like to see play Hull.

1. Wellens -
2. Gardner -
3. Wheeler - been in poor form since he came back from injury but it's either him or Shenton.
4. Jones - He has been "having a breather" in the U20's the last few weeks and hasn't been dropped. Time for him to come back into the side.
5. Makinson - if fit
6. Lomax
7. Gaskell - If only for his kicking in general play as without him our kicking game is shocking
8. Perry
9. Roby
10. Laffranchi
11. Soliola
12. Flanagan - if fit
13. Wilkin

14. Dixon
15 LMS
16. Clough
17. Puletua

I can see the logic here as there are wholesale changes that could be made, but making changes across the board could lead to some tragic reults against lesser sides than wigan. This keeps our core stable whilst offering some key attacking changes. other would go further and move lomax, wellens, meli, wilkin but that would cause so much disruption that it would be impossible to see improvements in any one area.

That's why i've not minded too much wheeler and lance getting an extended run, you can't see true form from a few minutes of a match, but a run of 10 matches will give you a better idea of what a player brings to a team across easy games, hard games as a team member and with individual actions.

I have already said in this thread that this may be worth a try. Gaskell may better at scrum half and Lomax at Stand-off. Many on here will say Lomax isn't a Stand-off but that has been his position since Under 7's. Not all Stand-offs are ball playing, creative wizards. Leon Pryce wasn't the best creative Stand-off but he ran devastating lines and could make breaks through the middle. Lomax has the same ability to run at defences and make breaks. Gaskells kicking (His one top drawer attribute) would be better used from first receiver before the defence is fully set, and could be devastating for Lomax to run on to.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 1:20 pm  

This is the best thread of the season so far even thought I don't quite agree with everything. Great thread Man of Steel.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 7:10 pm  

Cory69 wrote:

Should be a Cracker as FC will want to bound back from the KR game.

I bet Rommel will disagree with you.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 9:05 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

My point is that I don't think he had a great debut season and the fact he looked ok was because of the low expectations at the club at the time. A lot of other players contributed to last seasons exceptional end result, yet you seem to believe that Gaskell was really the only player who contributed. That is a massive disservice to all the other juniors who played last season. Bottom line is that Gaskell will never make a stand-off with enough quality to be at Saints for years. He is a modern day Mark Bailey, OK untill someone better comes along.

Where have I said, or even suggested, that?

P.S. I think Jamie Foster and Jonny Lomax both had better debut seasons than Gaskell. If you want me to go back further I will have to put my thinking cap on because my memory ain't what it was. Cue the jokes.

I said in a key position, you're comparing wing and utility to stand off as a key position?

Re: Manchester Massacre : Thu May 31, 2012 9:44 pm  

McClennan wrote:

This is the best thread of the season so far even thought I don't quite agree with everything. Great thread Man of Steel.

Thanks pal. It does seem to have got everyone thinking hasn't it? It's great everyone has sensible opinions and all are valid, as often than not (after me reading these forums for years but never posting) someone derails a thread by silly arguments.