Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:08 am  

Personally I'm not impressed. Yes has had an injury, but so had Perry last year for nearly a full season, Sia the year before. Does Perry get the same latitude? Did Sia? As for Kerion he got more latitude but he had been performing for years before the injury. Shenton was getting better towards the GF, but we where not talking about a player who would create an opening on his own from footwork (like Wheeler can) or busting thorugh (like Talau could). He needed the space before him.

I'm more than happy to give more time, after all that is what a contract does, but for me he is underperforming and I would not give another contract if we got more of the same for the rest of this year. If he was suddenly to improve next year, for me that's to little too late and smacks of players who only play when contracts are being discussed.

Maybe he is wrong for us, maybe we are wrong for him, but at the moment I can recall more creative displays from standin's like Gilmore, Wheeler (even Jones from what people tell me) than Shenton. But I'm always glad to be proven to be jumping the gun.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:02 am  

Should he be dropped to the reserves? Yes, he offers less than Jones/Wheeler/Meli at centre at the moment.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:11 am  

If confidence and form was a reason for sitting Gaskell and Foster in the u20s, then the same should apply to Shenton. He is well off the mark at present, and I agree with FearTheVee that he'd be at best our 4th choice centre at present. Hell, I'd even consider Flannery there before him at the moment.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:36 am  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Lies, damn lies and statistics etc. He may have run with the ball as many times as Meli did, but Shenton's runs were 90-95% from dummy half or 1st receiver whereas Meli generally received it down the line, in space and at pace. Shenton, whatever his strengths or weaknesses, is not the kind of player who's going to be able to cause defences problems up the middle from a standing start. In the 7 or so Saints games I watched last season I made a point of watching Shenton in every game and I reckon he received the ball out wide and at pace about 3 or 4 times tops in all those games put together. He's not a Newlove or a Lyon (nor even a Gleason) who can produce something out of nothing and needs the right service to shine. I hope he gets it under Brown next season so we can see one way or another what he's about, and I'll reserve judgement on him 'til then.

You're right. Statistics often don't tell the full story. Nevertheless they are an objective basis for rational debate. I mean, you seem totally convinced Shenton has been starved of possession whilst Gleeson was the beneficiary of good service. But other than your subjective analysis of this comparison I really don't see what verifiable evidence you're bringing to the table.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:03 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

You're right. Statistics often don't tell the full story. Nevertheless they are an objective basis for rational debate. I mean, you seem totally convinced Shenton has been starved of possession whilst Gleeson was the beneficiary of good service. But other than your subjective analysis of this comparison I really don't see what verifiable evidence you're bringing to the table.

Eh? Gleeson was 10 times the player at his peak that Shenton is or will ever be. When have I ever tried to compare the 2 on a qualitative basis? Anyone who attempted to do so would be mad. Maybe Gleeson did have as little service as Shenton did when he burst onto the scene. The comparison is however pointless as Gleeson had pace, a fantastic step and could on his day make something happen from out of nothing - Shenton hasn't and can't.

The point is that Shenton, completely ignoring any other players who've ever worn the Saints #3, to be effective needs the ball in space on the run - he has never had that even vaguely consistently in a Saints shirt yet. It is completely unfair to berate him on the basis that he can't make something dazzling happen when he is not getting good consistent ball - he simply is not that player, and very, very few of them exist in the GB game anymore, certainly not at centre. He's been disappointing as a Saints player to date and a pale shadow of our #3s and #4s past. But he's one of the top centres in the country right now and the best available we could realistically have in the squad. He's had no service when he's been fit and cannot be properly judged or written off until he has both.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:03 pm  

Eh? Gleeson was 10 times the player at his peak that Shenton is or will ever be. When have I ever tried to compare the 2 on a qualitative basis? Anyone who attempted to do so would be mad. Maybe Gleeson did have as little service as Shenton did when he burst onto the scene. The comparison is however pointless as Gleeson had pace, a fantastic step and could on his day make something happen from out of nothing - Shenton hasn't and can't.

The point is that Shenton, completely ignoring any other players who've ever worn the Saints #3, to be effective needs the ball in space on the run - he has never had that even vaguely consistently in a Saints shirt yet. It is completely unfair to berate him on the basis that he can't make something dazzling happen when he is not getting good consistent ball - he simply is not that player, and very, very few of them exist in the GB game anymore, certainly not at centre. He's been disappointing as a Saints player to date and a pale shadow of our #3s and #4s past. But he's one of the top centres in the country right now and the best available we could realistically have in the squad. He's had no service when he's been fit and cannot be properly judged or written off until he has both.

The highlights are your own words Hampton. So Gleason was 10 times better; Gleason was not the worlds best Centre by any means. The problem is Shenton has no step or pace and if you give me the ball in space and on the run, I would be effective. As far as making something out of nothing, Josh Jones manged to make yards out of nothing, Ryan Atkins made loads of yards out of nothing when we played Warrington. If he needs to be in the clear when he receives the ball he should be on the wing. In the under twenties preferably. Now hampton how are you going to defend his missed tackles and poor handling

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:41 pm  

redex113 wrote:

Now hampton how are you going to defend his missed tackles and poor handling

Well, Ex1 my good friend, it's pretty clear you're not the type worth trying to debate reasonably with, but I'll waste my time by paying lip-service at attempting same anyway....

His defence and handling last season were fine on the whole, rather better than fine towards the end of the season in fact. This season he's been recovering from an incredibly serious and near career-terminating injury for ****'s sake.... How much more defence than that do you need? How on earth could you be expecting him to be performing to anything like the same standards as he was before the injury yet?

What is it with people on here expecting players that have been seriously injured to magically recover from it instantly afterwards? How many players get victimised on here for the heinous crime of taking time to recover form/fitness after potentially career-ending injuries? There's always someone constantly getting jumped on by the clueless numpty scapegoat brigade on here for the simple crime of not being fit, whether it be Wilkin, or Gardner, or Wheeler, or Perry, or Pryce, or whoever the current flavour of the month is to unfairly dig the knife into. Injuries like Shenton's take time to fully recover from both physically and mentally. KC was a shadow of himself for an entire season after a similar injury. It's not the players' fault - it's the nature of such injuries. Jeesus H. ****ing Christ but there are some dense buggers on here....

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:49 am  

I remember people writing KC off a few years back.

I also remember most people on here calling for Wello to be dropped immediately before the season had even started.

If any players do read these forums, surely it can only motivate them to improve, so by all means carry on

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:15 am  

redex113 wrote:

Eh? Gleeson was 10 times the player at his peak that Shenton is or will ever be. When have I ever tried to compare the 2 on a qualitative basis? Anyone who attempted to do so would be mad. Maybe Gleeson did have as little service as Shenton did when he burst onto the scene. The comparison is however pointless as Gleeson had pace, a fantastic step and could on his day make something happen from out of nothing - Shenton hasn't and can't.

The comparison is absolutely relevant because when Gleeson signed even Huddersfield fans weren't sure whether he was good enough for Saints. Shenton, on the other hand, was knocking on the door international honours!

The point here is Gleeson DEVELOPED into a top class player at Saints. He was by no means a certainty. If anything Shenton has gone BACKWARDS and has yet to repeat the kind of form he showed at Cas that encouraged us to buy him.

Sure, part of this is down to coaching. I'd take Millward (then) over Simmons any day. But the other part is purely the responsibility of the player. He has to assert himself on the game and carve out a reputation. Gleeson did this in his first season and elevated himself to another level whereas Shenton's best efforts are still in a Castleford shirt.

Re: Should Shenton be dropped to the reserves for a bit ? : Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:06 pm  

saintcj wrote:

I remember people writing KC off a few years back.

Anderson changed the way Cunningham played though, and we also had the emerging Roby to take some pressure off. Had he carried on the way he was doing he would have been finished. It's also a credit to Cunningham, some players can't adapt to changing physical attributes.