Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:54 pm  

Newton-Le-willows-Warrior wrote:

the rfl need to act now like they did when cunningham and radlinski where close to going.

To keep Joel Tomkins? Doubt it. Good player but not exactly a Cunningham or Radlinski, if he goes for the money and the 'challenge' then good luck to him.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:16 pm  

Apart from money I can't see what RU has to offer. The domestic game is not a patch on RL. The way the international team have performed on and off the pitch in the WC leaves a lot to be desired. If they want to go and join that lot when Sam, in particular has the RL world at his feet then bye bye from me. It wasn't the end of the world when Robinson left and it wan't when Faz went either. You can't buy lengendary status in any sport and when your playing days are over nobody talks about who earned the most money. Legendary status like that earned by Billy Boston is eternal.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:51 pm  

nohalfbacks wrote:

Apart from money I can't see what RU has to offer. The domestic game is not a patch on RL. The way the international team have performed on and off the pitch in the WC leaves a lot to be desired. If they want to go and join that lot when Sam, in particular has the RL world at his feet then bye bye from me. It wasn't the end of the world when Robinson left and it wan't when Faz went either. You can't buy lengendary status in any sport and when your playing days are over nobody talks about who earned the most money. Legendary status like that earned by Billy Boston is eternal.

Hmm the Billy Boston who Wigan poached from welsh rugby union? Ironic really?

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:54 pm  

nohalfbacks wrote:

Apart from money I can't see what RU has to offer. The domestic game is not a patch on RL. The way the international team have performed on and off the pitch in the WC leaves a lot to be desired. If they want to go and join that lot when Sam, in particular has the RL world at his feet then bye bye from me. It wasn't the end of the world when Robinson left and it wan't when Faz went either. You can't buy lengendary status in any sport and when your playing days are over nobody talks about who earned the most money. Legendary status like that earned by Billy Boston is eternal.

I totally agree with your legacy statement Rugby League legends such as Boston and Cunningham shall be talked about and celebrated for as long as the sport exists, simply some thing money can't buy.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:16 pm  

LovesToSpooge wrote:

Wigan don't need the money and we certainly don't want to lose Joel. But ultimately if he wishes to leave Wigan then might as well take the money on offer. There can't be anything worse than having a player at your club who doesn't want to be there.

Really LTS?
Have you seen wigan's accounts recently?

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:21 pm  

When people scream that we should scrap the cap and spend spend spend, then i would like to point out that at the moment there is a huge financial crisis going on in Europe that provides a wonderful case study as to the consequences of spending beyond your means.

We in Britain thought it was wonderful in those 10 years under Labour when money was thrown around like confetti on Education and the NHS, loans were awarded aplenty and bankers awarded themselves huge unwarranted bonuses.
The end result however was a house of cards that came toppling down in 2008. Since then we have started to complain about the first spots of rain from Hurricane Bankrupt, but we havent even felt the deluge yet.

Something similar would face RL if it scrapped the cap. There would be a few years of glory as clubs went on a spending spree like the countries Greece and Ireland undertook. People would talk about a boom and how exciting it was. However it would all come crashing down, and all we would be left with would be a shrivelled husk of a game, that would be easily picked apart by rival sports. Just as we see now in Greece, which is having to sell all its family silver off to other countries to try to attempt to pay its bills, while at the same time begging for the White Teutonic Knight to come to their rescue and bail them out.

We have to therefore take the hit of such players leaving our sport. Realistically there are only probably 5-10 players Union would be interested in. These would be players able to play in the threequarters. Just look how the plan is for Eastmond to play wing or Fullback. Tomkins will probably play inside centre, just as Sonny Bill Williams does for the Allblacks.

I personally think the bigger threat to our game is from the NRL. I can seriously see them taking most of our best players in a few years time. I also think they will savage the Allblacks and Wallabies of talent because Southern Hemisphere Union will not be able to compete with the financial strength of the NRL.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:45 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

When people scream that we should scrap the cap and spend spend spend, then i would like to point out that at the moment there is a huge financial crisis going on in Europe that provides a wonderful case study as to the consequences of spending beyond your means.

We in Britain thought it was wonderful in those 10 years under Labour when money was thrown around like confetti on Education and the NHS, loans were awarded aplenty and bankers awarded themselves huge unwarranted bonuses.
The end result however was a house of cards that came toppling down in 2008. Since then we have started to complain about the first spots of rain from Hurricane Bankrupt, but we havent even felt the deluge yet.

Something similar would face RL if it scrapped the cap. There would be a few years of glory as clubs went on a spending spree like the countries Greece and Ireland undertook. People would talk about a boom and how exciting it was. However it would all come crashing down, and all we would be left with would be a shrivelled husk of a game, that would be easily picked apart by rival sports. Just as we see now in Greece, which is having to sell all its family silver off to other countries to try to attempt to pay its bills, while at the same time begging for the White Teutonic Knight to come to their rescue and bail them out.

We have to therefore take the hit of such players leaving our sport. Realistically there are only probably 5-10 players Union would be interested in. These would be players able to play in the threequarters. Just look how the plan is for Eastmond to play wing or Fullback. Tomkins will probably play inside centre, just as Sonny Bill Williams does for the Allblacks.

I personally think the bigger threat to our game is from the NRL. I can seriously see them taking most of our best players in a few years time. I also think they will savage the Allblacks and Wallabies of talent because Southern Hemisphere Union will not be able to compete with the financial strength of the NRL.

Don't follow your logic - if they want our players now they just come and get them anyway. Very few (robes) turn them down.
The only difference is that they will have a lot more money but as you say, they will raid RU in Oz & NZ so there will be even fewer places available for UK RFL players.

Surely the standard of the NRL players overall will go up so even fewer of our homegrown player will make the "grade" in the opinion of the NRL.
As far as I'm aware they are not going to expand the no of NRL teams so there is only a finite/limited no of NRL squad places so why they would want more english players than now is beyond me.

It's just as likely that the RU imports will squeeze out some of the weaker aussie players and we will end up with more second rate aussies than we have now.

We won't be able to attract the likes of JL anymore.
More Flanno anyone?

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:46 pm  

Destry wrote:

In the Sunday Times yesterday, Sam Tomkins was specifically mentioned as one of a "top ten" to be fast tracked through for the RWC 2015. HE was the only RL player on the list. I suspect, as Bath are about to find out with Kyle Eastmond, with the odd exception (Jason Robinson), RL backs will not save the English RU. Players like Chris Ashton are finishers, Hape was a let down, Big LES never made it in the Big Time.

I hardly think the Sunday Times is likely to include half-a-dozen league players in a list of promising players destined for the England RU side. It would be an embarrassment to the sport. As for them being put-off by recent signings - not likely. They had their fingers burned handing Farrell a gargantuan contract when he was a year either side of being shot. It didn't take them long to rectify the error. It takes time for any player to acclimatize to a new sport, which is why they (England RU - NOT the clubs) are now going exclusively for players age 19-22.

You've listed most of England's major targets over the past ten years. It should be said that just about all of them have been successful in some shape or form at club level and they (along with Henry Paul and other players from further back) warranted inclusion to the national team. Given the difficulties involved with switching to a foreign sport I'd say that's an excellent return which rather than putting them off league players is more than likely to further cement their desirability.

The RU needs creators as they have plenty of finishers of their own. That means a stand off. To play stand off at Union is very difficult unless you have played there all your life. RL forwards are generally not suited to Union for a variety of reasons. RU flankers tend to be RL props (Apollo P and Maurie). Not many RL forwards are the required 6'5" to play in the second row or back row.

There may be the odd raid but,to as to a "pillage", I doubt it very much.

I think you're underestimating England's desperation for success and the colossal reserves of money these guys have at their disposal. The former (in the wake of England's crushing exit from the RWC) is now reaching unheard of levels and they will think nothing of blowing the best part of half a million on two or three players who stand no more than a modest chance of making the grade.

We can't use past history as a guide on this occasion as there is no precedent for where the RFU is going. They are getting stronger (financed by any number of international revenue streams) whilst League is mired in one of the worst hit regions of the worst hit nations in depression.

Even worse, the NRL is now so awash with money it can afford not only to tempt the best of the best SL players but those on the tier below. The extra cash in their system means we're struggling now to attract their third tier stars.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:28 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I hardly think the Sunday Times is likely to include half-a-dozen league players in a list of promising players destined for the England RU side. It would be an embarrassment to the sport. As for them being put-off by recent signings - not likely. They had their fingers burned handing Farrell a gargantuan contract when he was a year either side of being shot. It didn't take them long to rectify the error. It takes time for any player to acclimatize to a new sport, which is why they (England RU - NOT the clubs) are now going exclusively for players age 19-22.

You've listed most of England's major targets over the past ten years. It should be said that just about all of them have been successful in some shape or form at club level and they (along with Henry Paul and other players from further back) warranted inclusion to the national team. Given the difficulties involved with switching to a foreign sport I'd say that's an excellent return which rather than putting them off league players is more than likely to further cement their desirability.

I think you're underestimating England's desperation for success and the colossal reserves of money these guys have at their disposal. The former (in the wake of England's crushing exit from the RWC) is now reaching unheard of levels and they will think nothing of blowing the best part of half a million on two or three players who stand no more than a modest chance of making the grade.

We can't use past history as a guide on this occasion as there is no precedent for where the RFU is going. They are getting stronger (financed by any number of international revenue streams) whilst League is mired in one of the worst hit regions of the worst hit nations in depression.

Even worse, the NRL is now so awash with money it can afford not only to tempt the best of the best SL players but those on the tier below. The extra cash in their system means we're struggling now to attract their third tier stars.

Fair play to you, that's one of the best posts I've ever seen on RL fans. We've got idiots on the Wigan board calling for us (fans) to boycott the International games. More than ever we as RL fans NEED to get behind the International team. The disgraceful treatment of Sam Tomkins in the Exiles game just played into RU hands. Sadly some fans are wringing their hands and rejoicing in the fact that it will weaken Wigan instead of acknowledging the fact that it actually weakens Rugby League in general. I felt the same way when I heard about Eastmond leaving so it's not a club thing, but I honestly don't know how we stop it, but I will ask the question at Wigans shareholders meeting tomorrow. As you know on here I'm not frightened of putting my head up to be shot at.

Re: Union about to come knocking at the door : Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:39 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Fair play to you, that's one of the best posts I've ever seen on RL fans. We've got idiots on the Wigan board calling for us (fans) to boycott the International games. More than ever we as RL fans NEED to get behind the International team. The disgraceful treatment of Sam Tomkins in the Exiles game just played into RU hands. Sadly some fans are wringing their hands and rejoicing in the fact that it will weaken Wigan instead of acknowledging the fact that it actually weakens Rugby League in general. I felt the same way when I heard about Eastmond leaving so it's not a club thing, but I honestly don't know how we stop it, but I will ask the question at Wigans shareholders meeting tomorrow. As you know on here I'm not frightened of putting my head up to be shot at.

There is only one way to hamper union. It is rather simple and wouldn't cost any money. But it is controversial and it would kill the international game.

Change the rules.

League has become a victim of its players utility. Over thirty years we have completely de-skilled the game. Where once there were specialist positions which took years to learn there are now simply slots into which players can be arranged and re-arranged. A player can be at fullback one week, centre the week after and scrum half the week after that.

But whilst multi-skilled players who can move smoothly between positions makes for attractive rugby (or at least it should do) - it also means they can move smoothly between sports. The Union guys must be laughing their heads off. We've made it EASY for them to pick and choose the best league talent. I mean, there was a time when they'd only take wingers. Anyone else simply couldn't adapt. Now they are taking second row forwards! The only position left is prop.

If we cannot find the money to fight them we must bite the bullet and introduce specialization. I'm not saying it will prevent Union from calling - but it will make things difficult.

Unfortunately, I can't see the Australians coming along for the ride. Why should they when their game is strong? Which means the end of international rugby.

It's a tough choice but our backs are firmly against the wall.