Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:52 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

We are overpaying for some players then. I suppose this is what happens in the NRL too though. Team wins trophies, everyone wants paying more because they are champions, players end up leaving.

Hmm its a tough one, in theory we are paying the current squad the same as the 2006 squad, so by that measure we are well overpaying our current players. However about half the teams in superleague are spending up to the cap, yet we've not missed out on the grand final in 5 years, so by that measure we're getting good value. Nothing is clear cut.
Add to that that Roby and Graham were probably on junior (ish) contracts in 06 and Lyon was playing for far less than his market value and that could explain our dominance that year.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:22 pm  

I don't think Saints are spending anywhere near the cap. Indeed, I reckon we could be in or near the bottom third for total wage bill in SL.

I think we're scrimping and squeezing every last penny for the ground and McManus is telling everyone we're spending high because we can't afford to lose ANY season ticket revenue.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:23 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Hmm its a tough one, in theory we are paying the current squad the same as the 2006 squad, so by that measure we are well overpaying our current players. However about half the teams in superleague are spending up to the cap, yet we've not missed out on the grand final in 5 years, so by that measure we're getting good value. Nothing is clear cut.
Add to that that Roby and Graham were probably on junior (ish) contracts in 06 and Lyon was playing for far less than his market value and that could explain our dominance that year.

We had four world class players in the squad in 06 in Lyon, Long, Cunningham and Scully, and a pack strong enough to leave Fozzard and Anderson out of final squads. We now have Graham and Roby and kids filling the squad past the first 13.

We were getting good value, but are we this year? I think that there are probably a similar number of average players in there, but there are far more kids expected to be first teamers, and I don't think it's them taking up all the cap space.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:25 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I don't think Saints are spending anywhere near the cap. Indeed, I reckon we could be in or near the bottom third for total wage bill in SL.

I think we're scrimping and squeezing every last penny for the ground and McManus is telling everyone we're spending high because we can't afford to lose season ticket revenue.

What and the hundreds of shareholders, who are mostly small holders and fans like myself choose not to tell anyone?

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:27 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

We had four world class players in the squad in 06 in Lyon, Long, Cunningham and Scully, and a pack strong enough to leave Fozzard and Anderson out of final squads. We now have Graham and Roby and kids filling the squad past the first 13.

We were getting good value, but are we this year? I think that there are probably a similar number of average players in there, but there are far more kids expected to be first teamers, and I don't think it's them taking up all the cap space.

Its definite not as good value as our 2006 squad, of that there can be little arguement, but is it good value compared to the other top 7 squads?

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:36 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Its definite not as good value as our 2006 squad, of that there can be little arguement, but is it good value compared to the other top 7 squads?

The problem is that it's getting worse and even though I agree with the aim of replacing from within with youth, I'm not sure the players coming through are good enough to take over.

I'm not sure it is a better squad than Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Hudds though. There are players that are individually better, Roby, Graham, etc. But is Gardner better than Lawrence or Cudjoe? Is Meli? Is their coach just getting more out of his players than ours is?

Of course it could just be the competition evening itself out as more teams spend up to the cap, and that can only be good for the game.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:43 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

The problem is that it's getting worse and even though I agree with the aim of replacing from within with youth, I'm not sure the players coming through are good enough to take over.

I'm not sure it is a better squad than Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Hudds though. There are players that are individually better, Roby, Graham, etc. But is Gardner better than Lawrence or Cudjoe? Is Meli? Is their coach just getting more out of his players than ours is?

Of course it could just be the competition evening itself out as more teams spend up to the cap, and that can only be good for the game.

I think think it is about evening out, which unfortunately means the very top teams like us are going to get worse.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:56 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

What and the hundreds of shareholders, who are mostly small holders and fans like myself choose not to tell anyone?

I'm sure we have our fair share of high-earners i.e. Pryce, Wellens, Graham, Wilkin and Roby . But if we are right up at the cap - and given the hefty number of inexperienced kids playing first team football - we either have to believe that McManus (arguably the most financially astute man in SL) has chosen to grant them all pay deals that are above and beyond the market rate for their level of achievement or he's not telling the truth.

Don't forget that it was McManus himself who stated over two years ago that we needed to cut our cloth accordingly in order to secure the stadium - which meant getting rid of the experienced high-earners and going with less expensive (but precocious) academy lads. If we're bang on the cap then what's happened to the cost-cutting? What was the point of getting rid of, say, Willie Talau (when we couldn't afford to) if we were just going to carry on spending like were champions?

I'll go back to the point about paying over the odds for our kids. If we are doing precisely that then what happens when all of them mature (as they all will in the next 18-24 months) and improve dramatically? If we're up at the cap we won't be able to give them any kind of pay rise and they'll be off double-quick. I suppose we could pay them more if Wellens retires or Meli leaves. But if we pay them with that money what's left over to replace Wellens and Meli?

It just doesn't add up.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:52 am  

Under the cap rules, if a player is long serving (can't remember the exact number of years) doesn't only half their salary count towards the cap?
If so, we are trying to replace KC, Scully and Longy on half the wages we were actually paying them.

Re: 19 Man Squad for Leeds : Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:34 am  

Frosties. wrote:

Yet tells you exactly the same as what it would in that thread, therefore meaningless thread.

Chill Frosties. It's not even our board. If someone came on SS shouting the odds he'd get chased off the board with axes!