Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:23 am  

Mugwump wrote:

The scrum-half has pretty much always been heavily involved with marshalling the defence (both Allan Langer and Andrew Johns were excellent defensive organisers). It's true that some are more vociferous than others, and, yes, duties tend to be shared these days between the loose-forward, hooker and sometimes full-back (who has a better view) - but somebody must do it.

Conceding 30 odd easy points against modest opposition with a near full-strength side suggests poor organisation, leadership and/or lack of motivation. Not surprising given that Hohaia's hardly had enough time to learn his team-mates' names, Lomax isn't a scrum half and Wilkin - whilst many things - has never possessed the leadership skills of a Scully or a Joynt.

I have never come across a defence organised by the scrum half in the modern game. The Full Back shouts people into gaps, the Wingers set how compact the line is and the front row and 13 keep the middle channel tight.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:41 am  

BackrowSaint wrote:

I see your point now, but I disagree.

In the modern game the defensive pattern in the Centre of the field is set by the two Props, the Hooker and the Loose Forward. These players occupy the central channel and set themselves within it. Either side of them is where the Second Row defends, these set the pattern of the defensive channel out until the wingers who will then set how compact the defensive line is. The scrum half defends outside the Second Row and often outside the Centre. In the modern day game, the Scrum Half doesn't set the defensive line.

This is just nonsense. Tell me, precisely when did this "modern game" in which the scrum half had zero input to the defence arrive? Three months ago? Allan Langer was regarded as one of the best defensive organisers in the business. Andrew Johns wasn't far behind him. Clearly you must never have seen Sean Long gesticulating wildly at his forwards to shunt left or right.

You're conflating the various tactical defensive set-ups the coach drills into the team (to suit various opponents) with the dynamic calling of plays by someone in lieu of rapidly changing on-the-field events. As any military strategist will tell you - no plan survives first contact. Faced with unfamiliar attacking plays from the opponent a team must adapt or get caned. Given that the coach isn't on the field to make immediate changes one player (usually the scrum half - if the NRL's tactical analyses are anything to go by) has the coach's authority to override any pattern if it is compromised.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:55 am  

BackrowSaint wrote:

I have never come across a defence organised by the scrum half in the modern game.

So you never watched Allan Langer or Andrew Johns or Sean Long or Ben Hornby or Chris Sandow? Precisely WHAT do you think those guys are/were shouting about in the time immediately between the ref shouting "hold" and the ptb?

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:06 am  

Jesting aside, Mathers for all his flaws was a major contributor in our improved defence, I think it's preferential to have your FB calling the shots if you're relying on one guy, but at Wire as most people know Briers does most of the shouting and organising at 6 with a defensive position at centre.
Briers was always a shouter but I'm sure he learned an awful lot from Alfie, I think though it's ideal to have 2, one in the line and the FB to iron out the gaps from behind.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:14 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

Lomax was one of our best defenders yesterday.

That's good. But I didn't mention Lomax's individual defence.

And he has no problem organising his part of the line - he defends from the centre position. What we needed was a fullback who could organise the defence, and cover it too, but Wello was very poor yesterday.

I guess that's your theory. But Wellens' abilities to organise the defence aren't conditional upon his fitness/speed/age. Unless he had laryngitis and couldn't speak the team would have received the same level of instruction they did during trophy-winning seasons (perhaps better given his greater experience).

While we allowed them too much room overall on the pitch, our goal line defence was particularly poor. But if memory serves most of their tries came from within the sticks area and not where Lomax was defending.

That's good. But ...

... I didn't mention Lomax's individual defence.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:16 am  

Horatio Yed wrote:

Jesting aside, Mathers for all his flaws was a major contributor in our improved defence, I think it's preferential to have your FB calling the shots if you're relying on one guy, but at Wire as most people know Briers does most of the shouting and organising at 6 with a defensive position at centre.
Briers was always a shouter but I'm sure he learned an awful lot from Alfie, I think though it's ideal to have 2, one in the line and the FB to iron out the gaps from behind.

I think you're mistaken. The halves make no contribution to the defensive pattern in the modern game.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:23 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I think you're mistaken. The halves make no contribution to the defensive pattern in the modern game.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:00 am  

I didn't say they had no contribution, it is each and every plays responsibility to ensure the defensive line is set. However, you was saying it was mainly Lomax's role which is nonsense.

If anything the Full Back has a far greater responsibility than the scrum half so aim your suggestions at Paul Wellens, after all he's in the optimum position to see everything going on.

Yes Lomax has a responsibility to ensure the line around him is set, but it's not his responsibility to set the entire line. Each individual player must be held accountable for being able to know where they need to be. The scrum half defends in wider channels than they used to, they physically can't organise the entire line, it's impossible doing that from the centre position.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:03 am  

And I know East Hull is a bit rough, but these aren't 'military strategists' they are Rugby League players.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:48 am  

Conceding 36 points against a team without recognisd halfbacks should probably ring a few alarm bells.