Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:31 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I think a lot our defensive problems stem from the scrum half position. A good half isn't only the playmaker and place kicker - he also sets the defensive pattern and controls the line.

Too many people are confusing Lomax's - admittedly good - attacking performances at scrum half with being a good scrum half.

Lomax is a fantastic defender, not sure where you are coming from here unless I've missed the point?

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:32 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

Lomax is a fantastic defender? Not sure where you are coming from here unless I've missed the point.

You have.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:37 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

You have.

Care to elaborate then?

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:42 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I think a lot our defensive problems stem from the scrum half position. A good half isn't only the playmaker and place kicker - he also sets the defensive pattern and controls the line.

Too many people are confusing Lomax's - admittedly good - attacking performances at scrum half with being a good scrum half.

I slightly disagree with that due to that nowadays the scrum half generally defends at the centre position, meaning that player is away from doing much tackling. In doing that the scrum half is protected and while required to do the occassional bit of tackling he is able to focus most of his energy on leading the team attacking wise.

I think the forwards including the hooker set the defensive pattern. It's the centre of the field and it's always the starting point of any attacking move from the opposition. If the centre of the field moves up quick and gets into the faces of the pivots from the attacking team then there is more chance of any move breaking down. If you win the centre of the field then you have a good chance of winning the game, which is why a good set of forwards are a neccessity.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:12 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

You have.

I see your point now, but I disagree.

In the modern game the defensive pattern in the Centre of the field is set by the two Props, the Hooker and the Loose Forward. These players occupy the central channel and set themselves within it. Either side of them is where the Second Row defends, these set the pattern of the defensive channel out until the wingers who will then set how compact the defensive line is. The scrum half defends outside the Second Row and often outside the Centre. In the modern day game, the Scrum Half doesn't set the defensive line.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:16 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I think a lot our defensive problems stem from the scrum half position. A good half isn't only the playmaker and place kicker - he also sets the defensive pattern and controls the line.

Too many people are confusing Lomax's - admittedly good - attacking performances at scrum half with being a good scrum half.

Lomax was one of our best defenders yesterday. And he has no problem organising his part of the line - he defends from the centre position. What we needed was a fullback who could organise the defence, and cover it too, but Wello was very poor yesterday. While we allowed them too much room overall on the pitch, our goal line defence was particularly poor. But if memory serves most of their tries came from within the sticks area and not where Lomax was defending.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:20 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Is he resting players?

Or is he giving everyone in the squad (who are likely to be a regular first teamer) a chance to get up to match speed and stake a claim for a spot?

I am sure Simmons actually stated this was his plan in an interview over the past few weeks.

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:44 pm  

Rommel wrote:

So everyone with a differant opinion to yours is clueless

Bingo! At last, someone on here who gets it...

Rommel wrote:

People pay there money and are entitled to there opinion, that display yesterday defensively was abysmall and requires slating.

Nobody's denying anyone's right to complain about the level of performances at the moment. Go complain all you want if you're not getting your money's worth - I'm not going at the moment so I can't comment in that regard.

The point is merely that raging doom and gloom about us being also-rans for the rest of the season due to a bit of dodgy early form is utter lunacy. There will be a flood of lemmings jumping off cliffs on these boards soon once we've lost a few games, all tearing at their clothes and wailing that our season is now over and we have nothing left to live for, and that the entire team needs to be sacked and replaced with 30 speedy wingers immediately etc. - that kind of reaction is utterly preposterous as it simply doesn't matter how we're performing now come the trophy shakeup. It just needs a little perspective, that's all...

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:24 pm  

Northampton_Saint wrote:

Bingo! At last, someone on here who gets it...

Nobody's denying anyone's right to complain about the level of performances at the moment. Go complain all you want if you're not getting your money's worth - I'm not going at the moment so I can't comment in that regard.

The point is merely that raging doom and gloom about us being also-rans for the rest of the season due to a bit of dodgy early form is utter lunacy. There will be a flood of lemmings jumping off cliffs on these boards soon once we've lost a few games, all tearing at their clothes and wailing that our season is now over and we have nothing left to live for, and that the entire team needs to be sacked and replaced with 30 speedy wingers immediately etc. - that kind of reaction is utterly preposterous as it simply doesn't matter how we're performing now come the trophy shakeup. It just needs a little perspective, that's all...

Northampton I may disagree with you most of the time, but you do make your point entertainingly.
Most people like to comment on the game, me included and yesterday did come as a bit of a shocker to most, (even given recent years at Hull KR). There is a slight difference between the we need another winger discussion and concerns over the defence.

Personally I think it's totally fixable, but people (me included) do get worried when we have shipped in nearly as many points as 11th place and yet have not played a top 4 or even top 6 side. To me it's very Saints of old, even when we won stuff we could still make a hard game against a struggling Oldham or Workington, yet compete with the Likes of Leeds, Wigan and Widnes in their pomp.

Royce has openly said he has not had a pre-season full of games, instead every player has had a run out in the opening 3 games plus widnes.

He has also tried a few combos at half back. As far as the coach is concerned, these 3 games where not games we should have struggled in and so has been happy to rotate around. If he was not going to do it now, the only other option was to have more pre-season games, which the injured players would have missed and added to the length of the year. Or to try combos in more key games later in the year.

I'm sure he was not expecting a capitulation of the defensive line, but he must have a good idea now of how the new players fit in, or don't?

I'd expect baring injury the catalan game to be our best 17 out on the pitch (as now we need to build form towards easter), did not see the game against Hull KR, but from the Salford game and the accounts from KR, I'd be surprised if Flannery makes the starting 17. Would be equally surprised to see Makinson not playing. The question is where?

From what I've seen and heared alot of the bigger names are not cutting it at present, the question will be can Royce cut them all, without causing friction.

Makinson
Ade
Shenton
Wheeler
Foster
Lomax
Gaskell/Wheeler (if Gaskell is out)
LMS
Roby
Clough
Dixon
Sia
Wilkin

La franki
TP
Flanaghan
Wheeler/another back (if gaskell is out)

Re: Hull KR Match Thread : Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:29 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Northampton I may disagree with you most of the time, but you do make your point entertainingly.
Most people like to comment on the game, me included and yesterday did come as a bit of a shocker to most, (even given recent years at Hull KR). There is a slight difference between the we need another winger discussion and concerns over the defence.

Personally I think it's totally fixable, but people (me included) do get worried when we have shipped in nearly as many points as 11th place and yet have not played a top 4 or even top 6 side. To me it's very Saints of old, even when we won stuff we could still make a hard game against a struggling Oldham or Workington, yet compete with the Likes of Leeds, Wigan and Widnes in their pomp.

Royce has openly said he has not had a pre-season full of games, instead every player has had a run out in the opening 3 games plus widnes.

He has also tried a few combos at half back. As far as the coach is concerned, these 3 games where not games we should have struggled in and so has been happy to rotate around. If he was not going to do it now, the only other option was to have more pre-season games, which the injured players would have missed and added to the length of the year. Or to try combos in more key games later in the year.

I'm sure he was not expecting a capitulation of the defensive line, but he must have a good idea now of how the new players fit in, or don't?

I'd expect baring injury the catalan game to be our best 17 out on the pitch (as now we need to build form towards easter), did not see the game against Hull KR, but from the Salford game and the accounts from KR, I'd be surprised if Flannery makes the starting 17. Would be equally surprised to see Makinson not playing. The question is where?

From what I've seen and heared alot of the bigger names are not cutting it at present, the question will be can Royce cut them all, without causing friction.

Makinson
Ade
Shenton
Wheeler
Foster
Lomax
Gaskell/Wheeler (if Gaskell is out)
LMS
Roby
Clough
Dixon
Sia
Wilkin

La franki
TP
Flanaghan
Wheeler/another back (if gaskell is out)

Drop Gardner for Hohaia and put Makinson on the wing and I'd go with that 17 as our strongest.