Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:21 am  

Blobbynator wrote:

I think Royce is on borrowed time at the moment, he needs a win from somewhere and it looks a million miles away. Our next set of fixtures couldn't be tougher and Royce has somehow got to lift the players confidence and pick up a win from somewhere. The way we're playing I cannot see us winning any of the next 3. Will McManus tolerate 7 losses on the bounce and 8 games without a win especially if that 7th loss was against Wigan? I think Royce would find it impossible to come back from that and McManus is a very patient man.

I watched the game with a mate who is a Saints fan and a group of Wiganers and they actually felt sorry for us by the end last night, that's how bad we were.

Whilst the players, particularly the senior players need to shoulder alot of responsibility for our poor form, the coach ultimately sets the game plan and structure of the team. I've not seen many Saints sides this poorly organised and dull to watch. We play with no invention until the game is gone - did we offload during the game the ball before Laffranchi's at the end? Our kicking game is awful, absolutely awful. Our long kicking game often ends in the full back or wingers hands on the full and our short kicking game is extremely predictable. If we're 30/40m out we bomb the ball. If we're near the opponents line we go for a grubber, but there's no real precision in this. It's just a hopeful grubber more often than not. How many times have we been caught on the last? There isn't one player taking the game by the scruff of the neck and dominating in this area. There is no direction and leadership. Do we have any real set moves? When we did change our "plan" from one out rugby we were moving laterally and not really committing defenders, it was far too predictable and easy for Bradford. This is all down to the coach who organises and sets the game plan in training, yet we don't appear to have one. We're rudderless on the field and at the moment we look like we're rudderless off it too.

I've never seen a team with such a poor kicking game. That comes down to no experince in the halves.

We've had Gaskell, lomax, lance, wheeler, wilkin and roby all attempt to take control of our kicking game and everyone has been poor.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:29 am  

Let's be fair here, of the 5 games you've not won, one was a draw, one was a 2pt loss, a 1pt loss and a 4pt loss. The Hull game was the only 2-score loss you've had. You're not exactly far off the mark. Just lacking confidence and leadership. Your senior players are letting you down and not passing on experience.

Royce needs to try and sort this out. I suspect he won't have until after Easter to try. If any of the next 3 games is a drubbing, he'll be gone.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:32 am  

Blobbynator wrote:

I think Royce is on borrowed time at the moment, he needs a win from somewhere and it looks a million miles away. Our next set of fixtures couldn't be tougher and Royce has somehow got to lift the players confidence and pick up a win from somewhere. The way we're playing I cannot see us winning any of the next 3. Will McManus tolerate 7 losses on the bounce and 8 games without a win especially if that 7th loss was against Wigan? I think Royce would find it impossible to come back from that and McManus is a very patient man.

I watched the game with a mate who is a Saints fan and a group of Wiganers and they actually felt sorry for us by the end last night, that's how bad we were.

Whilst the players, particularly the senior players need to shoulder alot of responsibility for our poor form, the coach ultimately sets the game plan and structure of the team. I've not seen many Saints sides this poorly organised and dull to watch. We play with no invention until the game is gone - did we offload during the game the ball before Laffranchi's at the end? Our kicking game is awful, absolutely awful. Our long kicking game often ends in the full back or wingers hands on the full and our short kicking game is extremely predictable. If we're 30/40m out we bomb the ball. If we're near the opponents line we go for a grubber, but there's no real precision in this. It's just a hopeful grubber more often than not. How many times have we been caught on the last? There isn't one player taking the game by the scruff of the neck and dominating in this area. There is no direction and leadership. Do we have any real set moves? When we did change our "plan" from one out rugby we were moving laterally and not really committing defenders, it was far too predictable and easy for Bradford. This is all down to the coach who organises and sets the game plan in training, yet we don't appear to have one. We're rudderless on the field and at the moment we look like we're rudderless off it too.

Very good post. I think the key is the lack of any sort of invention. If you watch Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Huddersfield, then after the first few drives, they are organising for a move. The halfbacks are shepherding people, and the runners hit the angles. If you watched us yesterday, you'd say that we didn't have any moves at all. We played like an amateur side, banging the ball up repeatedly and hoping an individual would do something unpredictable. That's why Hohaia got caught with the ball on the 4th tackle repeatedly (unforgivable, in my book as an ex-hooker), and why Wheeler kept getting tackled at first receiver because either he was incapable of offloading, or there was nobody to offload to. You're right about the kicking - it was truly dire.

I'm not sure what the answer is here. We do have some size up front - Perry and Puletua are very big men : at least as big as the strike props at other clubs. The two problems we have are firstly that there are no other big men. Their replacements are LMS, Clough, Laffranchi, Flanagan - all of whom are basically second rowers (I know LMS has been used as a prop, but I used to ref the lad as an under-18, and watched him through his development at Broncos, and he's a 2nd row. Lovely speed, decent footwork, but not a hammer-driver). But the second problem doesn't just start when Perry and Puletua are off the field, because when they're on it, they're currently running like they have concrete boots on. It's almost painful to watch how slowly they take the ball in, compared to the likes of Crabtree, Leuluai, even Carvell. It's just not a major threat for the defence, and they're not getting on to their front in the tackle through winning the collision, so the PTB is slow. I'd be willing to shove Meli and Soliola in as prop, tbh, simply to get some size and pace in there (especially as Meli just isn't earning his coin with sufficient sweat right now). Something radical is needed, because playing with a pack of small-to medium-sized second-rows is losing us games.

As for the moves and the backs, that comes down to coaching. I think Gaskell, Lomax and Wheeler have a lot of talent. But it is not currently showing on the field. Shenton is a good centre with a decent step, but he is getting no running chances at all, so he never gets to use it. There is simply no excuse for a team of Saints' quality to look so utterly clueless throughout an entire game. We cannot have a game plan that relies solely on Roby breaking the line and offloading to support. That's something which needs to be worked on during training, and fast. Or McManus needs to consider his options.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:36 am  

If Royce goes though, who else is available? Who do you replace him with? There's no point replacing like with like.

I'd be very surprised if they weren't already looking. Dare I say Brian Noble!

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:41 am  

Give it Keiron Purtell for the rest of the season, he's always saying he needs a chance and whats the worst that could happen? we miss the 8 and Eamonn is forced to invest in the squad and a proper coach?
Its simple maths for Eamonn 15k fans or 10k and £100k less in his pocket EVERY home game. Thats the difference between a top 3 Saints and a 9th placed Saints and i'm being generous there.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:42 am  

As I have said elsewhere, and as other Bulls fans have posted on this thread, this all reads like groundhog day for us. It's all almost word for word where we were several years ago. The only real difference is that ours was down to having no money, which led to a long term decline. Yours can't be down to that, so presumably can be fixed far more quickly?

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:48 am  

Adeybull wrote:

As I have said elsewhere, and as other Bulls fans have posted on this thread, this all reads like groundhog day for us. It's all almost word for word where we were several years ago. The only real difference is that ours was down to having no money, which led to a long term decline. Yours can't be down to that, so presumably can be fixed far more quickly?

Down to retirement of the senior players and top players being pillaged by union/NRL in a short space of time. In the last few years they've lost Sculthorpe, Long, Cunningham, Graham and Eastmond. Roby is all that's left. Wellens is hardly the player he was, and the young players aren't ready yet.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:49 am  

St pete wrote:

Utter rubbish! Your happy we signed a fullback to play halfback? Hahahaha great stuff.

I can only assume your redneck upbringing left you educationally bereft and unable to read.

The was many props off contract last season. Jason king, kite, griffin, Gil dudson, Lauaki, kafusia (spelling), Luke bailey plus other I can't think off.

There sure were. Unlike you I don't know whether any of them wanted to sign for Saints. Perhaps you should ask Deep Throat?

You comment on that fact it's not coaching and down to the jack of a scrum half, then maybe if he signed one on instead of a fullback we'd not be in this mess!

Aside from myself and a few others no one thought we needed a scrum half. I certainly don't remember YOU putting your head above the parapet and claiming such.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:49 am  

Wellsy13 wrote:

If Royce goes though, who else is available? Who do you replace him with? There's no point replacing like with like.

I'd be very surprised if they weren't already looking. Dare I say Brian Noble!

Anybody who can come in and offer new plays and organise the team will be better that Royce ATM.

Would love Daniel Anderson but can't see him coming over full time? John Kear is knowledgeable of the game and could possibly take over for the rest of the season until Eamon can sort something more permanent? Brian Noble possibly? Justin Morgan were is he?

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:52 am  

saintnickle34 wrote:

Compare that to the likes of the wigan team(Who i think man for man are not as good as us).

know admitting things about your rivals is difficult but its not just fitness where there's no comparison between our teams. man for man I'd take 4 or 5 of your players for our 17.

anyway, I didn't come to argue that. watching the game again, just exactly what is jon wilkin bringing to your side at the minute? as an experienced member of the team he should be leading from the front. his running, tackling, kicking, discipline and general play is very poor. its easy to bag a guy like foster or lay into wellens for being slow (welcome to the last 10 years there) or claim royce has no idea but wilkin at the minute typifies a collection of well paid experienced players who are hanging your young lads (wheeler, gaskell, lomax, makinson) out to dry. the same happened with our post mike greg team when guys like brown, robinson, aspinwall, hodgson slowly drifted out of the first team as the experienced players around them failed to pull their weight.