Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:37 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

For a start off, James Graham is a freak. He is not only extremely durable, but he has a passing game that has brought the role of ball playing prop back into fashion and is so good that it is a skill we will be unlikely to see in many other props, regardless of how many we actually produce. In addition, James Graham has been a real motivator on the pitch, something that any player could be, not necessarily a prop. So James Graham I think is unique in the combination of qualities he has to offer and no-one has produced anyone like him in this country for the whole time he has been playing. It could be said that props like him are a rare commodity down under too or else why has he been actively sought by NRL teams?

Aside from that, how do you know we haven't been producing quality props? I don't know what Frodsham is like, other than perpetually injured, but he could be quality when fit. Or Forster, also presently injured. Joe Greenwood has been given a shirt having played prop in the u20s game recently, so he could be a second rower moving forward. And we don't know who else is coming through the system, year by year.

As suggested, we have radically improved our youth development system over the last ten years. But that is very recent if we are talking about seeing the results. We are just beginning to see those results. We seem particularly good at producing second rowers and halfbacks but as stated in one of Saints' match programmes this season, the Saints' system encourages young players to play in numerous positions. Unless we follow the youth teams actively, which I don't, most of us won't have a clue what kind of talent is coming through. We will see it only when there are enough injuries in the first team for one of them to have a debut.

I was pretty impressed with Makinson, even though he is a Wiganer, but although I had heard of him prior to his debut, I had no idea what he was like. I thought Armstrong did ok standing in at fullback, yet he has only played at centre in the first team previously. I think it is testament to our production line now that we are able to call on such a variety of young players, most of whom appear to slip seemlessly into the first team when called upon. No doubt we will witness many more examples of our home grown talent in the seasons ahead as the system of the last ten years continues to bear fruit.

ps don't forget little cloughy, more and more a prop each year. Then there is emmitt who went to Cas and Johnson at Wakey.

There are 4 props how many do we want to produce each year?????

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:44 am  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Wellens surely?

Before Wellens. We're looking at a ten year gap. Possibly more.

Saints youth develoment has improved immensely in the last 10 years, and the fruits of that labour is only just starting to seep into the first team with the likes of Eastmond, Wheeler, Lomax, Ashurst, Dixon, McGennis, Foster, Gaskell, Clough, Moore, Armstrong, Makinson etc. We've also produced SL quality players in the likes of Smith, Bannister and Ellis, some of whom were binned off for off the field activities rather than on the field ability.

No one with any sense thinks we are the best in the world at producing youth players, or has said so as far as I can see, but we are far better than we were (there's one point of comparison) and picking out one position to back up the argument when we've produced players in the last ten years who can play to a good standard in every other position on the pitch is just you being pig headed.

I'm sorry but this is pure historical revisionism. We are NOT "far better" than what we were. Indeed, there's an argument to say that our junior set-up was as good (some might even say BETTER) under Eric Hughes (think of the players that generation produced - not least of whom is Cunningham). And let's not forget that Hughes (and British RL as a whole) didn't have half the advantages our current coaches possess.

And since when did picking out traditionally weak positions as far as development is concerned count as loaded reasoning?

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:25 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Before Wellens. We're looking at a ten year gap. Possibly more.

I'm sorry but this is pure historical revisionism. We are NOT "far better" than what we were. Indeed, there's an argument to say that our junior set-up was as good (some might even say BETTER) under Eric Hughes (think of the players that generation produced - not least of whom is Cunningham). And let's not forget that Hughes (and British RL as a whole) didn't have half the advantages our current coaches possess.

And since when did picking out traditionally weak positions as far as development is concerned count as loaded reasoning?

Jes I only asked if you were feeling down and tried to give some +ve's to cheer you a little.

Some people don't want to be happy.


In the end the league will tell, currently we are 5 GF's on the bounce and 3rd a 3rd of the way through the current season. We can't get to the top of the NRL because we don't play in it. If we did then we would have access to their cash and the selling Graham would be a mute point as he would not need to leave to play in the NRL.

Saints can only compete where we can, and in those circles we are doing nicely, thankyou very much. We are one of the top clubs, developing players and not all players will be world class, but not every NRL club produces world class players.

You seam to want to be depressed so I'll stop trying to cheer you up, but I disagree entirely with your premise.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:47 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I'm sorry but this is pure historical revisionism. We are NOT "far better" than what we were. Indeed, there's an argument to say that our junior set-up was as good (some might even say BETTER) under Eric Hughes (think of the players that generation produced - not least of whom is Cunningham). And let's not forget that Hughes (and British RL as a whole) didn't have half the advantages our current coaches possess.

And since when did picking out traditionally weak positions as far as development is concerned count as loaded reasoning?

Eric Huges was in charge from 1994 for just over 2 years, was he was promoted to the role directly from the Academy? Otherwise you cannot possibly claim Cunningham was a Hughes gem seeing as he'd have come from a previous Youth set up.

Extending Huges effects through to 1998 the kind of junior players that era brought through were Chris Morley, Joey Hayes, Richard Shiel, Andy Leatham, Danny Arnold, Paul Anderson (the centre), John McAtee, Brian Capewell, Tony Stewart, Jason Johnson, Lee Briers, Alan Cross, Scott Barrow.

There are a couple of decent players and others showed promise but it is hardly a who's who of Super League talent and trophies is it, let alone International and World Class? And Hughes wasn't restricted with a paltry salary cap, or pro rugby union and football, while dominant was far less celebrity instant millionaire that it is now.

Back to the present day the fact we could concievably field a decent starting 13 entirely based from academy products suggests we are doing fairly well at prodcuing SL talent

Wellens, Foster, Armstrong, Wheeler, Makinson, Gaskell, Lomax, Graham, Roby, Clough, Ashurst, Dixon, Magennis
Throw in a bench of last season departures doing ok in SL too: Jake Emmit, Paul Johnson, Chris Dean, Kyle Eastmond.

I accept it is not perfect and I know not all of the above will have long successful careers but it is clearly improving and the standard being produced is definitely better.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:24 am  

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:34 am  

jaybs wrote:

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

As I say it is not perfect, I think having a winning squad entirely based from your own academy is going to be more fluke than anything else, some players come through and then don't kick on.

LMS is a credit to the youth RL in London, may many more come through. It is the best way to grow the sport from the ground up

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:01 am  

jaybs wrote:

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

Boohoo , why is it unfortunate? players move on for new challenges and to develop - Jammer is off to the NRL to develop and LMS has decided to do the same with Saints, he looked like he'd gone a bit stale down at quins anyway. Nothing unfortunate about it, it's life and it opens up a spot in the Quins team for someone else.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:34 pm  

jaybs wrote:

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

I don't think we follow anyone. We developed it all by ourselves.

As for LMS, you miss what he has done for rugby in London. I listened to an interview with him on Radio London shortly after he'd moved up here. The links to our earlier Londoner were made but also just how well the Quins are doing to be able to produce someone who is sought after by other clubs. Like Shenton at Cas and Jammer here at Saints, I think LMS had grown a bit stale in London and wanted to start afresh with a new challenge. As it is, whenever he plays he is promoting the London connection which can only be a good thing IMO.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:40 pm  

jaybs wrote:

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

Big club signs top performer from small club shocker!!

Almost never happens, that.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:48 pm  

Cragganmore Kid wrote:

Big club signs top performer from small club shocker!!

Almost never happens, that.