Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:20 am  

From a Bradford fan's perspective this sounds like a discussion we were having 5 years ago ie, just a temporary slump vs critical decline. The latter was true and the failure to see what was happening has made for a truly tortuous few years. Saints are nowhere near as bad as we got but there are obvious problems which are not just 'form' related.

Firstly Bradford are not a poor as some on here are making out. We're not top 4 but we are improving particularly in the back row where we outworked Saints.

The lack of a scrum half in the absence of Roby is obvious. The conditions didn't suit Wheeler and Gaskell who are both good on their feet but your attack lacked basic structure. Jeffries played well by keeping it simple but he was partnered by Sykes who did OK but is not even a halfback.

Perry, Laffranchi, Clough, TP is not good enough as a front four. Your squad doesn't have enough props and particularly enough young English props a la Emmit who went to cas. For the money he'll have wanted it was a mistake to let him go.

Whoever is in charge of recruitment and retention has simply got it wrong. Too much money in overseas players and marquee signings like Shenton, and not enough young English forwards to form a core group. Nevertheless you have very good players. Lomax, gaskell and Wheeler need sticking with as they'll get better. Wilkin, who some on here criticise is an excellent player.

To sum up things are not as bad as some are making out but there are issues. The key one is the mcManus' judgement might just be starting to slip. If Simmons is partly responsible for starting the season without a 7 then he's partly to blame.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:39 am  

To sack or not to sack that is the question. I looked at the table last year, we lost 7 and did not beat Wigan or Warrington in the regular rounds.

We have to play Wigan and Warrington 5 times this year. Without counting Leeds that puts us up to 9 losses. No one can predict the future, our defence has tightened. But we can't play half a RL game. Defense will keep you in games, but it won't actually win games. The philosophy that defence wins games, is so wrong it's unreal. You can't defend for 80 mins and win. As a bradford fan said, we looked like we where playing well in the forwards and then it dropped off. Well thats Huddersfield and Hull all again. If the forwards are making headway, holding the territory, but then there is no result from that, that's when the lack of confidence kicks in.

I do not subscribe to the Saddened maddness, over our playing squad, but neither do I subscribe to the everything will come well in October theory. Quite frankly, I don't care about October. It's one game, I don't want to see a team back loading the season, prepared to lose half their games, to be fit for October. It's insane. Fans go week in and week out and whilst Trophies give you bragging rights, the week in week out wins and losses are what really impact on fans decisions to buy season tickets. If I was supporting a team the purposefully backloads their season, well quite frankly they can go sing for their supper for the first 15 games. If they aint bothered about preparing a proper season, then I won't pay to watch a full season.

We are not Leeds from last year, we don't have our 2 most influential players out, (yes Roby missed the last 2, but this rot set in way before).. When you look at the comments from Royce, he is quick to mention Roby being back next week, well that may help keep the score down but he is not a God and will not wave a magic wand and defeat Leeds on his own.

In the end the coach has to take the hit for player selection (backs on the bench) he does not use this to keep us fresh for the playoffs as he kept the policy (although I would now call it dogma) in the playoffs and the GF.

Not getting a prop - criminal . It's ok saying we have pushed backrowers forwards, but this has been done with too many of our current props. You can promote 1 maybe 2 backrowers, but you need a core of 3 or 4 props to do this.

Lance in at half back. Sorry but just wrong, decent player that he maybe not what we needed if we were replacing Wellens than fair enough, but he was coming in to cover the wrong players

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:51 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

To sack or not to sack that is the question. I looked at the table last year, we lost 7 and did not beat Wigan or Warrington in the regular rounds.

We have to play Wigan and Warrington 5 times this year. Without counting Leeds that puts us up to 9 losses. No one can predict the future, our defence has tightened. But we can't play half a RL game. Defense will keep you in games, but it won't actually win games. The philosophy that defence wins games, is so wrong it's unreal. You can't defend for 80 mins and win. As a bradford fan said, we looked like we where playing well in the forwards and then it dropped off. Well thats Huddersfield and Hull all again. If the forwards are making headway, holding the territory, but then there is no result from that, that's when the lack of confidence kicks in.

I do not subscribe to the Saddened maddness, over our playing squad, but neither do I subscribe to the everything will come well in October theory. Quite frankly, I don't care about October. It's one game, I don't want to see a team back loading the season, prepared to lose half their games, to be fit for October. It's insane. Fans go week in and week out and whilst Trophies give you bragging rights, the week in week out wins and losses are what really impact on fans decisions to buy season tickets. If I was supporting a team the purposefully backloads their season, well quite frankly they can go sing for their supper for the first 15 games. If they aint bothered about preparing a proper season, then I won't pay to watch a full season.

We are not Leeds from last year, we don't have our 2 most influential players out, (yes Roby missed the last 2, but this rot set in way before).. When you look at the comments from Royce, he is quick to mention Roby being back next week, well that may help keep the score down but he is not a God and will not wave a magic wand and defeat Leeds on his own.

In the end the coach has to take the hit for player selection (backs on the bench) he does not use this to keep us fresh for the playoffs as he kept the policy (although I would now call it dogma) in the playoffs and the GF.

Not getting a prop - criminal . It's ok saying we have pushed backrowers forwards, but this has been done with too many of our current props. You can promote 1 maybe 2 backrowers, but you need a core of 3 or 4 props to do this.

Lance in at half back. Sorry but just wrong, decent player that he maybe not what we needed if we were replacing Wellens than fair enough, but he was coming in to cover the wrong players

I agree with all of this but I can't seem to make the point clear that we are in deep $hit due to this years recruitment.

We at least one prop but where is he going to come from? Our quota is full and with no British players off contract available then I can't see how we can bring a prop in.

Also, the halfback problem IMO is the biggest problem at the club but again, where is the new halfback coming from?

Lance might drop to fullback in coming season when wello calls it a day but that still leaves us short in the halves.

I expect Meli to go at the end of the season along with with flannery so effectively they need replacing in order to keep the squad. So add that to the props we need, the halfback we need means we are looking for 5 players with no quota spots.

The next coach has got one hell of a job on his hands and the next appointment has to be correct or we will find ourselves as a non play off team.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:09 am  

Roy Haggerty wrote:

You're playing the man, not the ball, Muggers.

I don't post much these days, but that performance got me out of my bath-chair. It was unacceptably bad. In fact, it was terrible. There's a very good chance we're looking at a run of 8 games without a win. While I could swallow 3 losses to Wigan, Wire and Leeds, the Saints squad is better on paper than Hull, Hull KR, Catalans and certainly Bradford. In fact, on paper, we're better than Huddersfield, but on the pitch they are light years ahead.

That was awful stuff. Amateur in places. Forwards who couldn't get past the PTB, half-backs who couldn't deliver a pass to a running threequarter, and threequarters who - on the rare occasions they got the ball - had all the penetration of an impotent panda. Awful. Awful.

Something needs to change, fast, or this will be our equivalent of the season the pies had to cheat to avoid relegation. I don't care if it's firing the coach or whipping some players, but something has to change. I'm all booked up to bring the family up for the game against Wigan, and after tonight, I'm a bit unsure as to whetehr I can bear to put myself through watching us get hammered by 40 points.

Evrything you have said there is spot on.There was no fluidity between the halfbacks and on numerous occasions the ball went to ground.Also the fitness of the team looks poor.Compare that to the likes of the wigan team(Who i think man for man are not as good as us)there is no comparison ,they are miles fitter than us .How many times were plays screaming out for a quick play of the ball or a player trying his best to get up quickly to play it but it never happened .Slow cumbersome and devoid of any real gameplan is how i see this team and until these areas are addresed saints will sytruggle.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:16 am  

St pete wrote:

I agree with all of this but I can't seem to make the point clear that we are in deep $hit due to this years recruitment.

We at least one prop but where is he going to come from? Our quota is full and with no British players off contract available then I can't see how we can bring a prop in.

Also, the halfback problem IMO is the biggest problem at the club but again, where is the new halfback coming from?

Lance might drop to fullback in coming season when wello calls it a day but that still leaves us short in the halves.

I expect Meli to go at the end of the season along with with flannery so effectively they need replacing in order to keep the squad. So add that to the props we need, the halfback we need means we are looking for 5 players with no quota spots.

The next coach has got one hell of a job on his hands and the next appointment has to be correct or we will find ourselves as a non play off team.

If you are talking about a prop for this year then I fear we have missed the boat, as you say everyone is signed up. There are possibles but none of them as good as getting a prop at the normal time of year. We would have to be looking towards a loan, a player not playing well for another SL club, or someone playing well who we can, steal from a NL1 side. None of these are ideal options and it may well be better to struggle onwards for the rest of the season.

However if we are light in the pack, we could share the load more. Take yesterday, drop the back on the bench in Ashe and put Megennis on. It would give us more forward grunt in numbers if not in quality.

Halfback wise well we've just let too many go too quickly, Long, Smith, Eastmond, Ellis. The rot for me set in telling Long and Ellis and Smith to go, before we signed up eastmond long term. At that point Eastmond could pick his contract which put us with a 2 year contract with no chance of getting him for the next years.

Gaskell and Lomax can play halfback, but as Long says if they are being coached one way, they are unlikely to say, hey lets scrap this and play some different plays. Halfback can be recovered as they are young and can adapt, but the coach needs to coach the plays.

It's not impossible to turn this season into a better one, and not impossible for a new coach to bring in new players next year, but we have to get in first. If maguire taught us anything, it was a coach can take a top 8 side and make them a table topping side with 1 addition.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:23 am  

I'm not sure that Royce is to blame for the amount of passion that is being shown on the pitch.

I wouldn't be that disappointed if Leeds, Warrington and even the goons beat us, as long as the guys showed they give a feck,rolled up their sleeves and got stuck in.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:28 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

If you are talking about a prop for this year then I fear we have missed the boat, as you say everyone is signed up. There are possibles but none of them as good as getting a prop at the normal time of year. We would have to be looking towards a loan, a player not playing well for another SL club, or someone playing well who we can, steal from a NL1 side. None of these are ideal options and it may well be better to struggle onwards for the rest of the season.

However if we are light in the pack, we could share the load more. Take yesterday, drop the back on the bench in Ashe and put Megennis on. It would give us more forward grunt in numbers if not in quality.

Halfback wise well we've just let too many go too quickly, Long, Smith, Eastmond, Ellis. The rot for me set in telling Long and Ellis and Smith to go, before we signed up eastmond long term. At that point Eastmond could pick his contract which put us with a 2 year contract with no chance of getting him for the next years.

Gaskell and Lomax can play halfback, but as Long says if they are being coached one way, they are unlikely to say, hey lets scrap this and play some different plays. Halfback can be recovered as they are young and can adapt, but the coach needs to coach the plays.

It's not impossible to turn this season into a better one, and not impossible for a new coach to bring in new players next year, but we have to get in first. If maguire taught us anything, it was a coach can take a top 8 side and make them a table topping side with 1 addition.

Still missing my point, how can we bring anyone in next year?

We've no quota spots as lance is on 4yr deal, laffranchci 2yr deal, perry still has next season, sia looks to be signing a new deal and TP has two more seasons.

For us to bring a prop, halfback and replace both Meli and flannery we'd need to all English and I doubt we've got cash to spend or the is enough good quality players available.

If we'd signed a scrum half and a prop instead of a fullback and backrow then we wouldn't be in this mess.

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:43 am  

Saddened! wrote: You can't actually fault anything I've posted though can you? What Hohaia is could be determined by anyone who has watched him during his career. He's a willing player who's diminutive size makes him a worry amongst tired players or close to the line. He's been a utility player throughout his career, he's no halfback and was signed as one. I'm right on Hohaia, Jon Wells picked up on how poor his work at hooker is on the Sky coverage too, but I suppose he's a crying lunkhead too? Interesting review of your signings, http://www.leaguefreak.com/readarticle.php?article_id=12

Saddened! wrote: You can't actually fault anything I've posted though can you? What Hohaia is could be determined by anyone who has watched him during his career. He's a willing player who's diminutive size makes him a worry amongst tired players or close to the line. He's been a utility player throughout his career, he's no halfback and was signed as one. I'm right on Hohaia, Jon Wells picked up on how poor his work at hooker is on the Sky coverage too, but I suppose he's a crying lunkhead too? Interesting review of your signings, http://www.leaguefreak.com/readarticle.php?article_id=12

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:53 am  

Look at it like this, if we had two tough and dominant front rowers, TP and Sia could be wide running second rowers, and especially with TP, he could play longer minutes and be used as an attacking weapon rather than just a battering ram for 10 mins.

I'm sorry to say, LMS has failed to deliver on his potential, Laffranchi isn't big enough and Perry doesn't appear to have the desire for it. As long as we have these three leading the way and trying to put us on the front foot with ball in hand, we will always be physically dominated by many opposition packs. When was the last time you saw any if these three put a hit on like Kylie Leuluai or get his nose through the line like Jamie Peacock?

Re: Royce Out ! : Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:16 am  

I think Royce is on borrowed time at the moment, he needs a win from somewhere and it looks a million miles away. Our next set of fixtures couldn't be tougher and Royce has somehow got to lift the players confidence and pick up a win from somewhere. The way we're playing I cannot see us winning any of the next 3. Will McManus tolerate 7 losses on the bounce and 8 games without a win especially if that 7th loss was against Wigan? I think Royce would find it impossible to come back from that and McManus is a very patient man.

I watched the game with a mate who is a Saints fan and a group of Wiganers and they actually felt sorry for us by the end last night, that's how bad we were.

Whilst the players, particularly the senior players need to shoulder alot of responsibility for our poor form, the coach ultimately sets the game plan and structure of the team. I've not seen many Saints sides this poorly organised and dull to watch. We play with no invention until the game is gone - did we offload during the game the ball before Laffranchi's at the end? Our kicking game is awful, absolutely awful. Our long kicking game often ends in the full back or wingers hands on the full and our short kicking game is extremely predictable. If we're 30/40m out we bomb the ball. If we're near the opponents line we go for a grubber, but there's no real precision in this. It's just a hopeful grubber more often than not. How many times have we been caught on the last? There isn't one player taking the game by the scruff of the neck and dominating in this area. There is no direction and leadership. Do we have any real set moves? When we did change our "plan" from one out rugby we were moving laterally and not really committing defenders, it was far too predictable and easy for Bradford. This is all down to the coach who organises and sets the game plan in training, yet we don't appear to have one. We're rudderless on the field and at the moment we look like we're rudderless off it too.