Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:23 pm  

Billinge_Lump wrote:

Wellens surely?

Saints youth develoment has improved immensely in the last 10 years, and the fruits of that labour is only just starting to seep into the first team with the likes of Eastmond, Wheeler, Lomax, Ashurst, Dixon, McGennis, Foster, Gaskell, Clough, Moore, Armstrong, Makinson etc. We've also produced SL quality players in the likes of Smith, Bannister and Ellis, some of whom were binned off for off the field activities rather than on the field ability.

No one with any sense thinks we are the best in the world at producing youth players, or has said so as far as I can see, but we are far better than we were (there's one point of comparison) and picking out one position to back up the argument when we've produced players in the last ten years who can play to a good standard in every other position on the pitch is just you being pig headed.

Well said.

I'd say we're as good as any in this country at producing quantity along with quality youngsters. Roby and Graham the first batch and now we're seeing even more quality coming through and I'd expect even more in 3-5 years.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:25 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

But what is the point of comparison? The rest of SL? That's hardly a yardstick of greatness and being the top of the pile (are we?) shouldn't necessarily induce a crescendo of applause. I mean, can we REALLY say our system is so good after we have produced one first rate prop in nearly twenty five years?

If we are going to make a comparison, surely it has to be with the other top youth systems in Super League. Call it Wigan and Leeds for the past ten years - how many first rate props have they produced?

To use the NRL as a yardstick for Super League youth systems is ridiculous considering the talent pool they have to choose from.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:33 pm  

Ridiculous to do a comparison with the NRL.

In Aus, natural athletes play RL, in the UK, the natual athletes tend to play football.

I've seen first hand the work our development system delivers and it really is first class. It is certainly not for the want of time, money and effort on behalf of the clubs development coaches. At the end of the day, you have to make the best of what you have available and the club certainly does. There are some real quality kids in the current academy system including some front rowers of the future like Joe Bate and Brad Ashurst. If they continue to work hard, these guys will be first teamers of the future.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:14 pm  

One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens.

One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:22 pm  

ComeOnYouWolves wrote: One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens. It's just jouno talk as is us being linked with about 10 different names in the NRL to replace Graham.

ComeOnYouWolves wrote: One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens. It's just jouno talk as is us being linked with about 10 different names in the NRL to replace Graham.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:33 pm  

I couldn't really be fussed answering that negative diatribe from Mugwump, but thanks to those that did.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:48 pm  

ComeOnYouWolves wrote: One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens. Which is exactly what I've said.... If you must know, Saints originally offered TP a 1 year deal, Warrington then offered him a 2 year deal which made Saints raise the offer to 2 years. There has also been offers from other North West clubs. He currently has not made his mind up due to off field problems back home in Australia. He has not yet re-signed, which is what the article says. BUT Warrington are not in the picture despite having made an offer. It is back to the NRL or stay at Saints.

ComeOnYouWolves wrote: One for BackrowSaint here..... On the Sydney Herald website http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/st-helens-set-to-raid-nrl-after-losing-graham-20110427-1dwz7.html At the bottom of the Graham piece it says: They have been unable to re-sign former Penrith second-rower Tony Puletua amid significant interest from elsewhere in the competition, although there have also been suggestions the Kiwi might be considering a return to the NRL. Tigers prop Bryce Gibbs has also been mentioned as a target for St Helens. Which is exactly what I've said.... If you must know, Saints originally offered TP a 1 year deal, Warrington then offered him a 2 year deal which made Saints raise the offer to 2 years. There has also been offers from other North West clubs. He currently has not made his mind up due to off field problems back home in Australia. He has not yet re-signed, which is what the article says. BUT Warrington are not in the picture despite having made an offer. It is back to the NRL or stay at Saints.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:57 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I mean, can we REALLY say our system is so good after we have produced one first rate prop in nearly twenty five years?

For a start off, James Graham is a freak. He is not only extremely durable, but he has a passing game that has brought the role of ball playing prop back into fashion and is so good that it is a skill we will be unlikely to see in many other props, regardless of how many we actually produce. In addition, James Graham has been a real motivator on the pitch, something that any player could be, not necessarily a prop. So James Graham I think is unique in the combination of qualities he has to offer and no-one has produced anyone like him in this country for the whole time he has been playing. It could be said that props like him are a rare commodity down under too or else why has he been actively sought by NRL teams?

Aside from that, how do you know we haven't been producing quality props? I don't know what Frodsham is like, other than perpetually injured, but he could be quality when fit. Or Forster, also presently injured. Joe Greenwood has been given a shirt having played prop in the u20s game recently, so he could be a second rower moving forward. And we don't know who else is coming through the system, year by year.

As suggested, we have radically improved our youth development system over the last ten years. But that is very recent if we are talking about seeing the results. We are just beginning to see those results. We seem particularly good at producing second rowers and halfbacks but as stated in one of Saints' match programmes this season, the Saints' system encourages young players to play in numerous positions. Unless we follow the youth teams actively, which I don't, most of us won't have a clue what kind of talent is coming through. We will see it only when there are enough injuries in the first team for one of them to have a debut.

I was pretty impressed with Makinson, even though he is a Wiganer, but although I had heard of him prior to his debut, I had no idea what he was like. I thought Armstrong did ok standing in at fullback, yet he has only played at centre in the first team previously. I think it is testament to our production line now that we are able to call on such a variety of young players, most of whom appear to slip seemlessly into the first team when called upon. No doubt we will witness many more examples of our home grown talent in the seasons ahead as the system of the last ten years continues to bear fruit.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:31 pm  

Sounds like Muggers is being visited by the Black Dog. Cheer up old chap. Your concerns are valid, but it's unlikely that all the negative possible outcomes will simultaneously come to pass. There may be some positives as well.

Re: Puletua Has Been Offered New 2 Year Deal : Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:34 pm  

In twenty years our youth system has produced Cunningham, Roby and Graham. Three genuine world class, best at their position players. It's not Brisbane Broncos but it is significantly better than any other British club. The only other team that comes close is Bradford who brought through Fielden and Peacock but even then the former faded before his natural peak and was he really the best in the world at prop? Probably not. I would add that both the Tomkins brothers have potential to rise to the top too but it's too early to judge.