Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:44 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

We couldn't carry have Wellens AND Hohaia on the bench.

We need to call it a day on Wello.
We'd be better starting to getting Swift to fill in at #1
We're well covered in the halves.
He's so far down the pecking order in terms of a forward its untrue.

If Turner goes back to centre (meaning Jones will primarily be back row), we sign a prop and stick with LMS in the 2nd row, then Wilkin, Flash and Wello are all looking like they're surplus to requirements.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:51 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

We need to call it a day on Wello.
We'd be better starting to getting Swift to fill in at #1
We're well covered in the halves.
He's so far down the pecking order in terms of a forward its untrue.

If Turner goes back to centre (meaning Jones will primarily be back row), we sign a prop and stick with LMS in the 2nd row, then Wilkin, Flash and Wello are all looking like they're surplus to requirements.

I agree on Wellens but I still think Wilkin has a lot to offer and shouldn't be disregarded just yet. If Soliola, Manu, Laffranchi, Wellens, Wlikin and Flanagan all left then it would a lot of pressure on people like Greenwood and Savelio to step up and play far more minutes than they have this season.

The jury is out on Flanagan still for me. Some weeks he looks decidedly average and then he goes all Jonathan Thurston-esque on us last week.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:53 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

If Turner goes back to centre (meaning Jones will primarily be back row), we sign a prop and stick with LMS in the 2nd row, then Wilkin, Flash and Wello are all looking like they're surplus to requirements.

I disagree, you still need a good strong squad mixed with youth and experience especially if you want to challenge on all 3 fronts. A top 4 spot is even more crucial next season.

I imagine most looked at our squad at the start of the year and wondered where Flanagan would fit in but he's played the majority of our games in the last 3 or 4 months. As a back up option he's decent to have.

Wellens - well he's like marmite on here. Some love his selection, some hate it. The coaching staff clearly love having him around so I imagine he will play a utility role in the squad again.

Wilkin is another that gets some unnecessary stick for me. He has some up and down games at times but is one of the most adaptable players we have. He can play in the back row and halves with no problem, he could probably cover hooker too if needed. He is experienced and has some leadership qualities, that the squad as a whole lacks. I think he'll slot into the back row alongside LMS & Vea next season.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:15 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

Wilkin is another that gets some unnecessary stick for me. He has some up and down games at times but is one of the most adaptable players we have. He can play in the back row and halves with no problem, he could probably cover hooker too if needed. He is experienced and has some leadership qualities, that the squad as a whole lacks. I think he'll slot into the back row alongside LMS & Vea next season.

I'm no Wilkin hater, I especially appreciate him playing out of position as he has done in order to benefit the team. His work rate shows he always plays with 100% for the Saints.

However, I generally think he's too easily physically dominated as a forward. He does put shift in to get his tackle count high, but I need more than that from a high earner (which I presume he is). Jones can do that and generally offers a lot more going forward (t'other week aside), Flash can get his tackle count up but hits a lot harder, Anthony Walker can tackle like a champ, but hasn't been selected in god know how long.

At the end of the day, I perhaps feel Wilkin as a back rower embodies Saints failings of recent years - lots of talent and qualities to talk about, but at the end of the day, not quite tough enough to make them work.

If Flash is good value, then fair enough, but would he be happy being outside the starting 17?

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:42 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

I'm no Wilkin hater, I especially appreciate him playing out of position as he has done in order to benefit the team. His work rate shows he always plays with 100% for the Saints.

However, I generally think he's too easily physically dominated as a forward. He does put shift in to get his tackle count high, but I need more than that from a high earner (which I presume he is). Jones can do that and generally offers a lot more going forward (t'other week aside), Flash can get his tackle count up but hits a lot harder, Anthony Walker can tackle like a champ, but hasn't been selected in god know how long.

At the end of the day, I perhaps feel Wilkin as a back rower embodies Saints failings of recent years - lots of talent and qualities to talk about, but at the end of the day, not quite tough enough to make them work.

If Flash is good value, then fair enough, but would he be happy being outside the starting 17?

I'm really not sure on Josh Jones. He seems to have stagnated a bit this season and I'm not really sure if he's a back rower or Centre? I think with the development of Thompson and the potential of Savelio (and Greenwood too), he could find it tough in the next few years to get ahead of them. Like Flash, he is an adaptable player though and given Percival's record with injuries, will probably play a fair bit in the Centre.

In the case of Flash, his situation hasn't really changed from this year, he's a squad player that if we were full strength wouldn't get into our strongest side. But in a long season, his durability and work ethic would be useful.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:57 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

I'm really not sure on Josh Jones. He seems to have stagnated a bit this season and I'm not really sure if he's a back rower or Centre? I think with the development of Thompson and the potential of Savelio (and Greenwood too), he could find it tough in the next few years to get ahead of them. Like Flash, he is an adaptable player though and given Percival's record with injuries, will probably play a fair bit in the Centre.

In the case of Flash, his situation hasn't really changed from this year, he's a squad player that if we were full strength wouldn't get into our strongest side. But in a long season, his durability and work ethic would be useful.

I think its important to have one backrower who can really stack up the tackles. The big guys don't tend to fall into this catorgory, although LMS has always been able to make a decent count.
I like Jones, more as a centre, but I think he's a capable back row and offers more going forward than other lighter weight guys.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:28 pm  

I've drafted a possible 25 man squad, in positions, assuming we will bring in another good prop before our recruitment is done. Interestingly there is no place in the 17 for either Wellens or Wilkin in my squad. Turner plays at Loose as I like what he brings to the position and his big weakness in defensive positioning is negated in that position. One thing is for sure, we've got outstanding depth and options, specifically in the forwards.

1. Jonny Lomax
2. Tommy Makinson
3. Mark Percival
4. Josh Jones
5. Adam Swift

6. Travis Burns
7. Luke Walsh

8. Kyle Amor
9. James Roby
10. Alex Walmsley
11. Atelea Vea
12. LMS
13. Jordan Turner

14. Lance Hohaia
15. Mose Masoe
16. New Prop
17. Luke Thompson

18. Paul Wellens
19. Jon Wilkin
20. Mark Flanagan
21. Joe Greenwood
22. Greg Richards
23. Andre Savelio
24. Matty Dawson
25. Richard Beaumont

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:54 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

I've drafted a possible 25 man squad, in positions, assuming we will bring in another good prop before our recruitment is done. Interestingly there is no place in the 17 for either Wellens or Wilkin in my squad. Turner plays at Loose as I like what he brings to the position and his big weakness in defensive positioning is negated in that position. One thing is for sure, we've got outstanding depth and options, specifically in the forwards.

1. Jonny Lomax
2. Tommy Makinson
3. Mark Percival
4. Josh Jones
5. Adam Swift

6. Travis Burns
7. Luke Walsh

8. Kyle Amor
9. James Roby
10. Alex Walmsley
11. Atelea Vea
12. LMS
13. Jordan Turner

14. Lance Hohaia
15. Mose Masoe
16. New Prop
17. Luke Thompson

18. Paul Wellens
19. Jon Wilkin
20. Mark Flanagan
21. Joe Greenwood
22. Greg Richards
23. Andre Savelio
24. Matty Dawson
25. Richard Beaumont

No way can Turner play loose. He's not playing loose now, he's actually playing 6. We don't need him anywhere the middle of the field next year with burns and Walsh there and also Wilkin.

Stick Turner back in centre and let him, jones and Percy fight it out.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:59 pm  

St pete wrote:

No way can Turner play loose. He's not playing loose now, he's actually playing 6. We don't need him anywhere the middle of the field next year with burns and Walsh there and also Wilkin.

Stick Turner back in centre and let him, jones and Percy fight it out.

You're probably right, but I just see something there even if it is only small potential. I'd certainly like to try it and see how it goes but it may not workout in the long term as he may fall flat on his face in that position.

Re: Welcome to St Helens Travis Burns : Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:02 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

You're probably right, but I just see something there even if it is only small potential. I'd certainly like to try it and see how it goes but it may not workout in the long term as he may fall flat on his face in that position.

He's actually kicked pretty well to be fair and he's got a massive boot on him.