Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:49 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

But we still dominated you in the first half. We just couldn't turn that into points.

Like I said. You got territory and possession from dropped balls and penalties. Your forwards did nothing with either and neither did your backs.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:52 am  

Pieman wrote:

Like I said. You got territory and possession from dropped balls and penalties. Your forwards did nothing with either and neither did your backs.

The forwards weren't our problem yesterday, it was the backs not taking the chances.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:00 am  

Pieman wrote:

Like I said. You got territory and possession from dropped balls and penalties. Your forwards did nothing with either and neither did your backs.

Our forwards definitly dominated, you were probably looking at Graham and Roby who were targeted. Meanwhile Tony P, Flannery, Soliola and Moore made plenty of half breaks and momentum, unfortunately the Wigan defence were impressive in defending the last 10 mins.

Our lateral passing across the back line was poor, so you were correct on that one.

I,m just wondering if Eastmond had played if that would have pepped up our backline, we will never know.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:25 am  

Makinson looked to have some pace on him, but Saints just never went right. Whether this was because they were targeting Deacon/J Tomkins/Charnley or avoiding Finch/Carmont/Richards I'm not certain.

Charnley also made Meli look pedestrian in defence a few times, his two breaks both came from Meli getting turned inside out.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:27 am  

CM Punk wrote:

Makinson looked to have some pace on him, but Saints just never went right. Whether this was because they were targeting Deacon/J Tomkins/Charnley or avoiding Finch/Carmont/Richards I'm not certain.

Charnley also made Meli look pedestrian in defence a few times, his two breaks both came from Meli getting turned inside out.

Speaking of turned inside out, I can't remember a player looking as confused as Wellens on Charnley try...

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:46 am  

Ron wrote:

Speaking of turned inside out, I can't remember a player looking as confused as Wellens on Charnley try...

The wello turning his back thing was right in front of me and I was in shock St how poor wello looked.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:45 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

We've got a good side, a top 3 side definitely and we'll run both Wigan and Warrington close when our forwards dominate like that and I imagine we will have a say in the Play Offs. Yesterday proved that we have the best forwards in the league when they put their mind to it and add in a match fit Clough and a fully fit Perry and we'll be fine next season. We may need a prop to cover the big loss of Graham, but we're not far off up front and I think we'll cope OK with what we've got if nothing changes. I don't think we need to panic too much, we don't need to make a mass amount of changes IMO and we should be proud of this team. It may not be our greatest Saints team, but there's definitely a good spirit there and they will more often than not give you everything.

The problem comes in the backs for me, especially at full back. Sam Tomkins was the big difference between the teams. The way he links into the line in attack, the way he uses his speed and evasion to return the ball and attack the line is sensational and his positioning and defence is massively under-rated. Compare that output to Wellens and it's a world apart. He returns the ball so slowly especially when he has to turn and whilst at times he can link in nicely with the backs (when it involves drawing one man and passing) he doesn't chime into the line at pace and he no longer seems to score in the big games himself like he once did. Full back is such a crucial position and you can't carry someone in that position purely because they've been a Saints legend. I love Wellens, he's been fantastic for us, but he can't keep playing there especially when we have players like Eastmond (fair enough he's leaving), Makinson, Hohaia, Lomax and Wheeler who can all play in the halves, at full back or both and all of them have pace and evasion skills. I actually think Makinson could make a really good full back for us. He has size, he's really quick, he has good footwork and caused Wigan problems with his returns yesterday. He's also a good one on one defender and seems OK under kicks too with his experience on the wing. On his returns he was far better than both Wellens and Foster, although at least Foster does return the ball at pace, he just doesn't break tackles. It'd be interesting to see how Makinson would do chiming into the line and creating plays as 3rd pivot. He's played Centre in the reserves before, so he no doubt has decent hands. Whether he'll be given that chance when Gardner returns (who has earned a new contract) remains to be seen.

I'm also not convinced Shenton has been anywhere near good enough both with the ball and in defence. He's been a big disappointment for me and it's no surprise we go down Meli's side because we know we'll get results down there like we did twice yesterday. The problem is we become predictable with that tactic and unbalanced and Wigan overloaded that side defensively because we went there all day long and knew they didn't have to concern themselves defensively on the other side as much. I bet Carmont barely made a tackle. Maybe he needs more decent ball and he definitely needs an attacking 2nd rower like Soliola inside him who attracts 2 or 3 defenders, because he seems to be a Centre that needs space to use his pace, rather than being an off the cuff creative player who can create for himself like some of our previous Centres. Maybe we've been spoilt down the years and I'm over reacting, but I definitely we feel we lack edge on our right hand side offensively and defensively.

The halves issue has been mentioned by a few but in Pryce, Lomax, Wheeler, Hohaia and Gaskell we have plenty of options and those are strong options to have especially when Wilkin has a good kicking game too. I'd definitely keep Pryce. He has been slagged off by a few for yesterday's performance, but it's his 3rd game game back and he's still not running at 100%. But he makes a big difference to our side. He attracts defenders, shows the ball and can break tackles. He'll get better as the season goes on and should he stay fit we have to keep him. Put Lomax or Hohaia alongside him and we have a good combination with the likes of Wheeler and Gaskell in reserve.

The only other issue for me is defensively I think we're still a bit naive and this may well be a coaching issue. We dominated the game in possession and territorily but when Wigan were on our line I was never really comfortable, especially when they attacked our right side defence. I suppose this comes back to Shenton and his inside men (half back and back rower) but all season sides have had alot of joy down that side and we don't seem to shift quickly enough to cover. We also don't put the attacker on their back or look to dominate in the tackle, which gives you an extra second or two to set the defensive line. Whilst we only conceded 18 points yesterday and looked pretty strong in general, particularly up the middle, I still think it's an area we can improve.

Agree with most of this but not your comments on Shenton.
I and all the fans around me commented on Shenton's great defence, he looked really up for it. in attack he got hardly any ball due to our obsession of feeding everything through lean who for reasons best known to him never moved away from our left hand side.

In fact if you look at our two tries the first one was created by Shneton's half break (the second by robys dart down the middle) neither were created directly through the left. It just shows that the first time we tried anything different, and less predictable it worked.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:58 pm  

Ron wrote:

Speaking of turned inside out, I can't remember a player looking as confused as Wellens on Charnley try...

The quater final when Charnley made Hodgson look like a turnstyle.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:01 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

But we still dominated you in the first half. We just couldn't turn that into points.

You dominated possession not us. When you have so much possession you really need to put points on the board because sure as chips is chips, it will eventually swing back. I'd go so far as to say, had Wigan had the amount of possession you had, we'd have scored more than 30.

Re: Near perfect and we still lose : Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:01 pm  

Watching Charnley in full flow is awesome, great prospect.