Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:12 am  

I wasn't at the game on Friday as I'm on holiday but I take it we rolled out the 3 drives, drop off and an early kick tactics again?

For us to play that way with Sean Long on the coaching staff really does baffle me. He must be tearing his hair out. It's awful to watch and will simply not work for us.

For a start we don't have good enough kickers in our side to pin teams down in their half. Kicking on the 4th is pointless when the kick is going straight down the opposition's throats.

My biggest moan at the minute though is this obsession with the drop off. There was an example in the Catalans game when we were about 8 behind with 10 minutes left. It was the 4th tackle and we were 20 yards out. Our "move" of choice was to hit Greg Richards with a drop off back into the middle of the field. It's completely and utterly clueless. For KC to coach that is shocking, but surely Walsh and Burns need to take some responsibility and realise that a certain element of "off the cuff" has to be expected in those situations?

Our pack is good enough to win us a lot of games and put us where we are in the table, but we need to do more when it matters most. Losing games is one thing but losing them playing an absolutely terrible brand of rugby just leaves a really bad taste.

Perhaps KC has watched us win the GF last year with fairly basic tactics and has assumed he can repeat that. That's a very short-sighted approach and one that is now in danger of backfiring massively and has us looking over our shoulder at the teams in 4th and 5th.

Looking at our squad on paper at the start of the year I was convinced we were the team to beat. A big aggressive pack, 2 out and out half backs for the first time in years and exciting young 3/4s.

I really can't believe we've allowed it to get to this point.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:30 am  

[quote="The Yellow Giraffe"]I wasn't at the game on Friday as I'm on holiday but I take it we rolled out the 3 drives, drop off and an early kick tactics again?

For us to play that way with Sean Long on the coaching staff really does baffle me. He must be tearing his hair out. It's awful to watch and will simply not work for us.

For a start we don't have good enough kickers in our side to pin teams down in their half. Kicking on the 4th is pointless when the kick is going straight down the opposition's throats.

My biggest moan at the minute though is this obsession with the drop off. There was an example in the Catalans game when we were about 8 behind with 10 minutes left. It was the 4th tackle and we were 20 yards out. Our "move" of choice was to hit Greg Richards with a drop off back into the middle of the field. It's completely and utterly clueless. For KC to coach that is shocking, but surely Walsh and Burns need to take some responsibility and realise that a certain element of "off the cuff" has to be expected in those situations?

Our pack is good enough to win us a lot of games and put us where we are in the table, but we need to do more when it matters most. Losing games is one thing but losing them playing an absolutely terrible brand of rugby just leaves a really bad taste.

Perhaps KC has watched us win the GF last year with fairly basic tactics and has assumed he can repeat that. That's a very short-sighted approach and one that is now in danger of backfiring massively and has us looking over our shoulder at the teams in 4th and 5th.
I
Looking at our squad on paper at the start of the year I was convinced we were the team to beat. A big aggressive pack, 2 out and out half backs for the first time in years and exciting young 3/4s.

I really can't believe we've allowed it to get to this point.[/


I've been saying it for weeks about this drop off. It seems the only play we do as well as the short ball to Greenwood which teqms now have noticed and stop it. The inside/short ball is just basic school boy stuff and we don't even execute it well enough. It can work if done proper but burns/walsh ain't taking it to the line, they dropping them off 2m away from the line so it's not turning the defence.

Leeds didnt a very good inside ball move last week where peacock turned it inside to Hardaker and it was executed to perfection and leeds scored off it. That's 36yr old prop Jamie peacock doing what out halves can't do.

I've not seen a team look so clueless in my life. It's worse than the simmons days.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:57 am  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

For us to play that way with Sean Long on the coaching staff really does baffle me. He must be tearing his hair out. It's awful to watch and will simply not work for us.

For a start we don't have good enough kickers in our side to pin teams down in their half. Kicking on the 4th is pointless when the kick is going straight down the opposition's throats.

My biggest moan at the minute though is this obsession with the drop off. There was an example in the Catalans game when we were about 8 behind with 10 minutes left. It was the 4th tackle and we were 20 yards out. Our "move" of choice was to hit Greg Richards with a drop off back into the middle of the field. It's completely and utterly clueless. For KC to coach that is shocking, but surely Walsh and Burns need to take some responsibility and realise that a certain element of "off the cuff" has to be expected in those situations?


Looking at our squad on paper at the start of the year I was convinced we were the team to beat. A big aggressive pack, 2 out and out half backs for the first time in years and exciting young 3/4s.

I really can't believe we've allowed it to get to this point.

Its baffling for me as well that Sean Long has not taken over our attacking structure, look what he did with Salford over his short period there. KC should be looking at our defence which is one big massive turnstile at the moment. For around 3 or 4 games now his post match comments have concerned the team playing dumb, so maybe its not all down to the game plan but very bad half back executions.

I can,t see how our game is going to improve with a one out pass flat attack, the opposition are just getting an easy ride on there defensive set, again the half backs and hooker have got to get players running in from deep with a bit of pace and momentum. Greenwood and LMS are looking far less effective these last couple of games, there is only Vea who can operate in this restrictive way.

With our half backs so much out of form and having no replacements, KC has got his hands tied and we are stuck until Wikin comes back in the side.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:57 am  

Sean Long being appointed defensive coach pretty much sums up KC's reign so far; baflling and wrong.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:07 pm  

I have agreed with every comment on this thread. It's not often that you find a general consensus on these pages so that, for me anyway, says a hell of a lot.

If we can all see it then surely the coaches can see it? What worries me is that Cunningham took charge after Royce was sacked and we played the same tripe we are serving up now. I can't see anything changing over the next couple of weeks and we are facing the prospect of not winning a game in the super 8s if this carries on. Some tough fixtures to follow.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:23 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

My biggest moan at the minute though is this obsession with the drop off. There was an example in the Catalans game when we were about 8 behind with 10 minutes left. It was the 4th tackle and we were 20 yards out. Our "move" of choice was to hit Greg Richards with a drop off back into the middle of the field. It's completely and utterly clueless. For KC to coach that is shocking, but surely Walsh and Burns need to take some responsibility and realise that a certain element of "off the cuff" has to be expected in those situations?

I don't understand what Saints fans have against a drop off. It's like saying we have an obsession with the second man play, or an obsession with the face ball. It's one of the main moves in rugby league, of course we use it often.

A drop off on 4th 20 metres out means you get a PTB that isn't horrendously slow (providing Richards does his job well). It also gives you split halves from the middle of the pitch, meaning two kicking options and less kick pressure. 8 behind and you either need a kick for a repeat set or a kick you can compete for, both of which you aren't likely to achieve if Burns is kicking across his body from the right hand corner with the defence flying up because we shifted it out to the right wing when it wasn't on.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:13 pm  

Can't comment on either of the last two games. But purely in terms of the scores neither are good.

All coaches face such crises in their careers. I guess how Cunningham responds to this one really will have a large say in his career at the club.

That said, neither result really changes a great deal. We're still in a good position and with some good players to return.

The big issue for me is Walsh. I said three weeks ago that unless his teammates see some kind of improvement in his game they will feel less and less happy about carrying him. Sooner or later team morale will sink and from therein it's only a short step toward complete and utter implosion.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:05 pm  

Saint #1 wrote:

I don't understand what Saints fans have against a drop off. It's like saying we have an obsession with the second man play, or an obsession with the face ball. It's one of the main moves in rugby league, of course we use it often.

A drop off on 4th 20 metres out means you get a PTB that isn't horrendously slow (providing Richards does his job well). It also gives you split halves from the middle of the pitch, meaning two kicking options and less kick pressure. 8 behind and you either need a kick for a repeat set or a kick you can compete for, both of which you aren't likely to achieve if Burns is kicking across his body from the right hand corner with the defence flying up because we shifted it out to the right wing when it wasn't on.

I can't tell if you actually mean this or if you're taking the mick.

You honestly think that a drop off to a prop on the 4th tackle when chasing the game was the RIGHT thing to do?? Wow. We should be aiming to score tries in that situation, not preparing ourselves in advance for a better opportunity at a repeat set!! The lack of ambition, creativity and urgency in what you're saying is absolutely shocking.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:25 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

I can't tell if you actually mean this or if you're taking the mick.

You honestly think that a drop off to a prop on the 4th tackle when chasing the game was the RIGHT thing to do?? Wow. We should be aiming to score tries in that situation, not preparing ourselves in advance for a better opportunity at a repeat set!!

I haven't seen the game - but Saint #1 is right. Whether either you or I like Saints' current brand of football is irrelevant here - given our tactical style (one which doesn't involve a great deal of width) setting up for territory and pressuring for the mistake in their half is a FAR BETTER option than suddenly trying to play a brand of football we haven't all season, coughing up the ball close to our line because of it and losing the game entirely.

Sean Long (who did have excellent backs to work with and greater width, tactically) won many a big game from behind by not trying to force the pass with a handful of minutes to go - punting instead for territory. Far too many sides panic when there really is no need to. In ten minutes you can score four tries - so being down by eight is no reason to suddenly start throwing what in the NFL are referred to as "Hail Mary" passes.

Re: This is not St Helens RLFC : Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:55 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I haven't seen the game - but Saint #1 is right. Whether either you or I like Saints' current brand of football is irrelevant here - given our tactical style (one which doesn't involve a great deal of width) setting up for territory and pressuring for the mistake in their half is a FAR BETTER option than suddenly trying to play a brand of football we haven't all season, coughing up the ball close to our line because of it and losing the game entirely.

Sean Long (who did have excellent backs to work with and greater width, tactically) won many a big game from behind by not trying to force the pass with a handful of minutes to go - punting instead for territory. Far too many sides panic when there really is no need to. In ten minutes you can score four tries - so being down by eight is no reason to suddenly start throwing what in the NFL are referred to as "Hail Mary" passes.

Trust me if you'd have seen the game you'd know exactly where I, and everyone else bar you and Saint#1, are saying.

They were down to 12, we had perfect field possession, we needed points and were chasing the game and we simply chose to see out our set. It was awful.