Re: A thread for the optimists : Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:03 pm  

Hope Eamonn reads Allez's posts because that's what the majority of our fans are thinking. If Keiron was some un heard of Aussie every man and his dog would want him hanged. Because it's the 'king' we have the same deluded people giving th eold 'ohh give him time'. We are St Helens, we should want to be the best. We should settle for nothing but to be the best now and in the future. Were not a club that gives people 24 months settling in because 'its the right thing to do'

Re: A thread for the optimists : Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:14 pm  

LFC Saint wrote:

Hope Eamonn reads Allez's posts because that's what the majority of our fans are thinking. If Keiron was some un heard of Aussie every man and his dog would want him hanged. Because it's the 'king' we have the same deluded people giving th eold 'ohh give him time'. We are St Helens, we should want to be the best. We should settle for nothing but to be the best now and in the future. Were not a club that gives people 24 months settling in because 'its the right thing to do'

Well he probably won't and I'll probably continue to be the board Pariah because I have the sheer effrontery to question a 'legend'. Thing is, I don't care. How anyone can be 'blind' enough not to admit that something is very very wrong simply astounds me.

Anyway, life's all about opinions.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:18 pm  

Sorry nicked from Redvee but this is exactly my feeling.....


Im beginning to wonder what on earth this team are doing all week on the training field. They seem incapable of doing even the basics correctly. Saints look like a team that is being coached badly. No game plan. Tactics are dross. No discipline, no enthusiasm and worst of all no pride. Its time for Eammon to wake up and smell the coffee. Our coach seems incapable of motivating this group of players to play to their optimum potential. KC has been a legend at Saints but as far as coaching is concerned he has to be the worst for twenty years. His team selections have ineptitude and panic written all over them. Eammon needs to bring in another coach to stop the rot for next season or we will have more of the same next year. St Helens rugby club is not a forum for teaching aspiring coaches their trade, its a club with a long tradition of winning and right now our team is embarrassing in its ineptitude. Its sad that KC has come up short, and we all wanted him to do well but the reality is that he is out of his depth. Im not even going to start on the shortcomings of our player recruitment, which shows a shocking lack of ambition, and a reluctance to invest in quality. We have been told that the club is financially the best its been for years. If this is the case then its time we stopped recruiting average players and brought in some quality.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:21 pm  

LFC Saint wrote:

Sorry nicked from Redvee but this is exactly my feeling.....


Im beginning to wonder what on earth this team are doing all week on the training field. They seem incapable of doing even the basics correctly. Saints look like a team that is being coached badly. No game plan. Tactics are dross. No discipline, no enthusiasm and worst of all no pride. Its time for Eammon to wake up and smell the coffee. Our coach seems incapable of motivating this group of players to play to their optimum potential. KC has been a legend at Saints but as far as coaching is concerned he has to be the worst for twenty years. His team selections have ineptitude and panic written all over them. Eammon needs to bring in another coach to stop the rot for next season or we will have more of the same next year. St Helens rugby club is not a forum for teaching aspiring coaches their trade, its a club with a long tradition of winning and right now our team is embarrassing in its ineptitude. Its sad that KC has come up short, and we all wanted him to do well but the reality is that he is out of his depth. Im not even going to start on the shortcomings of our player recruitment, which shows a shocking lack of ambition, and a reluctance to invest in quality. We have been told that the club is financially the best its been for years. If this is the case then its time we stopped recruiting average players and brought in some quality.

I don't feel so isolated now. A fellow believer.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:17 pm  

Allez wrote:

Permit me to point out a few serious flaws in your argument:

1 - I do not know KC. I have never met him. Ergo how can it be personal? If I consider a player consistently not to be up to the standard we expect/need does that mean it's personal too? Maybe everyone who bags Matt Dawson means they are all personal towards him too?

2 - You are correct in that I didn't comment on those results. There's a reason - that's my expectation.

3 - I'm referring to performances. You are referring to results which is what most blinkered Saints fans do. My assertion at the moment is that we are grossly under performing and it's not acceptable. It's happened too often despite the results you cite.

4 - I judge people on their merits and I don't care if it contradicts the populist approach that he's untouchable because he has a statue. That was yesterday. This is today. The Peter Principle applies in abundance.

5 - I have lost an immense amount of respect for him as he appears to be Mr Teflon. Always someone else's fault and doesn't accept any responsibility. Ever. Middles. Edges. Half Backs. Senior Players. Junior Players. Never him.

6 - Criticising his players in public. Not acceptable. Clearly the apologists will say 'aww leave him alone it's his first year'. I don't care. You don't do that. Ever. It's simply unprofessional.

So. Sorry to torpedo your knee jerk apologist reaction with facts but there you go. Let's see how we go next week and the week after ey? Confident? No?

Wonder why.

Personal as in your criticism is always focused on KC, it's never anyone elses fault. You expect Saints to win every game? When was the last time that happened?

The magic thing about sport is that (generally) results reflect performance. So winning 4 consecutive matches with Wigan and Warrington in there generally indicates a team performing quite well. Losing 3 consecutive matches shows we're performing badly at the minute. Being 1 point away from second in the league doesn't make it look like we're performing too badly given the obvious deficiencies in our squad.

Criticising your players in public is never acceptable? Here is this from Wayne Bennett, arguably the greatest coach in the history of rugby league, this year, after 28 years of coaching:
The Broncos coach was asked if he was impressed about Thaiday playing the first half without a break.
“Well he gave himself a few breaks. He gave away three penalties,” Bennett responded.
""It's not acceptable from Sam, to be honest," Bennett said.
"Okay, he's an Australian (Test) player and 200-game player here and just knows that kind of stuff doesn't work.
"We have to have a team that's disciplined and can match it with the top teams and your top and most senior players have to be responsible.""
If only someone told him that criticising your players in public was never okay...

Re: A thread for the optimists : Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:17 am  

Saint #1 wrote:

Personal as in your criticism is always focused on KC, it's never anyone elses fault. You expect Saints to win every game? When was the last time that happened?

The magic thing about sport is that (generally) results reflect performance. So winning 4 consecutive matches with Wigan and Warrington in there generally indicates a team performing quite well. Losing 3 consecutive matches shows we're performing badly at the minute. Being 1 point away from second in the league doesn't make it look like we're performing too badly given the obvious deficiencies in our squad.

Criticising your players in public is never acceptable? Here is this from Wayne Bennett, arguably the greatest coach in the history of rugby league, this year, after 28 years of coaching:
The Broncos coach was asked if he was impressed about Thaiday playing the first half without a break.
“Well he gave himself a few breaks. He gave away three penalties,” Bennett responded.
""It's not acceptable from Sam, to be honest," Bennett said.
"Okay, he's an Australian (Test) player and 200-game player here and just knows that kind of stuff doesn't work.
"We have to have a team that's disciplined and can match it with the top teams and your top and most senior players have to be responsible.""
If only someone told him that criticising your players in public was never okay...

I agree and I don't agree....

We have no structure and seriously lack ideas in attack. It's one up boring rugby with a short or inside ball and that's our attacking plays. I see 10yr old brook teams put attacking plays on as its kids stuff. It may not work every time but we don't even try. We are totally clueless with the ball and that 100% is down to KC. No structure to attack, no ideas, no plays is 100% is fault.

The left edge defence has been massive problem all year and now Kc is trying to fix it I the super 8s! This should have been done mid season and not at the business end of the season. He's now unsettling the team in the business end of the year which is crazy and 100% KC fault.

You can also add to that he's dropped Amor who's the only prop willing to give walmsley some support. How can he drop Amor in the super 8s leaving us with only one senior prop in alex ? Richards, Thompson and Sav are still very young in terms of props and will have more off days than good days until they fully mature. We are getting Alex killed, we are running him into the ground. That big fat tub of lard Mose is just rubbish. How people on here rate him I dont know. He turns up maybe 7 games a year and shocking for the rest. If anyone should be dropped it's him.

On the other hand tho, the players are to blame also. Missing one on one tackles like they going out of fashion. The halves haven't got a creative bone in their body.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:22 am  

Look on the bright side, we have Peyroux and Tasi coming next year. I'm sure those bargain basement signings will turn it round for us.

Roll on 2016 the year of the saints.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:03 am  

Saint #1 wrote:

Personal as in your criticism is always focused on KC, it's never anyone elses fault. You expect Saints to win every game? When was the last time that happened?

Allez clearly wasn't saying they expected us to win every game. The point made was about performance. We have expectations at Saints; expectations born of watching either quality sides or sides with heart (or both!) over the years. This side, at present, has neither quality nor heart, bar a few individuals who appear to give 100% every week. The point is EVERYONE should be giving 100% every week. To compromise that standard at any time is to begin the slow slide into mediocrity. While other clubs may be happy with that, traditionally speaking Saints' club is not. The fans certainly aren't. Fans keep the club, coach and players honest. It is right that we do. Some West Standers booed tonight after Jones made a total cock up of a great Percy break. Whatever anyone's thoughts of booing are is irrelevant: the fans were showing in one of only two ways what they thought of that inept play. Why we are playing so ineptly is anyone's guess but like it or not it is Cunningham's job to address it. He isn't doing, and that is clear.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:26 am  

Saint #1 wrote:

Personal as in your criticism is always focused on KC, it's never anyone elses fault. You expect Saints to win every game? When was the last time that happened?

The magic thing about sport is that (generally) results reflect performance. So winning 4 consecutive matches with Wigan and Warrington in there generally indicates a team performing quite well. Losing 3 consecutive matches shows we're performing badly at the minute. Being 1 point away from second in the league doesn't make it look like we're performing too badly given the obvious deficiencies in our squad.

Criticising your players in public is never acceptable? Here is this from Wayne Bennett, arguably the greatest coach in the history of rugby league, this year, after 28 years of coaching:
The Broncos coach was asked if he was impressed about Thaiday playing the first half without a break.
“Well he gave himself a few breaks. He gave away three penalties,” Bennett responded.
""It's not acceptable from Sam, to be honest," Bennett said.
"Okay, he's an Australian (Test) player and 200-game player here and just knows that kind of stuff doesn't work.
"We have to have a team that's disciplined and can match it with the top teams and your top and most senior players have to be responsible.""
If only someone told him that criticising your players in public was never okay...

Of course it is because MY OPINION is that the coach is accountable (ultimately). I'm not gonna blame his wife am I?

Criticising players in public is unacceptable. I don't care if God does it - it doesn't make it right and you are ascribing the same excuse to Wayne Bennett (i.e. he's a great coach so he can do what he wants) as you are to KC (he's a legend so don't you dare criticise him). Standards are standards - not made flexible because of who you are.

If your boss constantly kept having a pop at you and the team you work with in public would it earn his respect? No. It's not difficult and people need to stop making excuses for him. He's at it again this morning so he is either doing it on purpose or hasn't got the basic intellect to understand that you don't do it.

I'll sum his ignorance up.

This morning's headline 'Cunningham blasts woeful Saints'

Spot what's missing?

Corrected it reads 'Cunningham blasts HIS woeful Saints'.

He's accountable.

Re: A thread for the optimists : Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:34 am  

Cunningham has to take responsibility. It is his job to motivate the players and get them playing like a team.

At the start of the year we were aggressive and every player looked like they would give their all for their teammates. Now the players look like they might cry if the game gets too tough. They play like they have never met each other, let alone trained with each other. No passion no commitment.

Publicly slating players and then dropping Turner because Walsh is incapable of tackling anyone. But then a refusal to ever say Walsh has done anything wrong.

Leaving many of our best, most aggressive players on the bench against Leeds when everyone knows how Leeds start games.

Picking Jones at centre and Greenwood on the bench when wilkin and Vea are out and we need someone in the middle with Jones workrate, and then putting Turner on the bench and bringing him on in the 2nd row.

Dropping Amor when LMS is also out.

Persisting with poor one man tactics.

All ridiculous decisions that indicate a coach has lost his way and players are losing faith.