Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:42 am  

Dux wrote:

I've kept quiet on KC's tenure so far, as I think it takes the best part of a season before you can be confident in judging which things you are seeing from the team are systematic and which are blips or quirks caused by circumstances such as injuries. I'm not going to start jumping on KC's back now, but I am starting to have genuine concerns at shortcomings which seem to be a direct result of the extremely conservative approach to the game we are now taking (I was away for the semi final, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have already said).

Firstly, kicking on tackle 3. I don't have a problem with this if it is done right (it worked a treat for Leeds and Kevin Sinfield in some of those rainy grand finals against us). But to be done right there needs to be an element of on-field thinking about it: if the side isn't gaining ground and the half back gets the ball at first receiver on tackle 3 and notices that there's clear space to kick into and turn the full-back, then fine - kick it. But with us at the moment it's clearly premeditated. When we start a set in our own 30 we already know (and so do our opponents) that we're going to kick on the 3rd/4th. That means that we're not responding to what's in front of us - we're just mindlessly punting it when it gets to the allotted tackle. Thus we see 3rd/4th tackle kicks going straight to the full back (unforgivable - if you sacrifice tackles for a kick it simply has to turn the full back) and even kicks on tackle 3 when we're in the opposition half, FFS.

To make matters worse, 50% of the time we put in one of these early kicks for territory we give away a penalty straight away and the whole exercise becomes completely pointless.

As people have noted, we continually bring the ball back to the middle. We have a big pack, so I can understand the temptation to do this, but if anything our one-dimensional approach is undermining what should be a weekly advantage in the middle of the pitch. Our opposition knows that the ball is going back to the middle most of the time, so it's easy for them to compress their line in anticipation of this.

One advantage of having tall, strong, heavy forwards is that it's difficult for the opposition to wrap up the ball and there are plenty of opportunities for offloads. You only have to watch Leeds to see how damaging this can be. But you can see from the body language of our forwards that offloads are basically the last thing on their mind. They don't look for them at all (unless the game is getting away from us). Again, the knowledge that we won't offload makes it easy for the opposition to pile numbers into the tackle which then restricts our yardage.

I could understand this conservative, pre-programmed approach when we had no half-backs, but there's no need for it at all when we have our first choice 6, 7 and 9 on the pitch, as well as a full back who can play ball a bit. We need to see these players let off the leash and allowed to play what's in front of them. I also understand that our backs aren't up to the standard of those at Leeds, but they're not terrible either - we need to get them in the game, even if it's just to keep the opposition guessing and make a bit more space for our forwards (a bit wrong-way-round, but if it works...). And we need to start looking for offloads. Until we start doing these things we will continue to be depressingly easy to defend against.

I completly agree with this 100%!

Regarding the kicking on 3rd. It does work agsinst some teams but we go out and kick on 3rd no matter who we play, kicking to leeds with a back three like they have is utter suicide.

We don't have any structure to our attack or set plays. It's just one up boring crap with the odd inside ball or short ball to Greenwood. We ain't playing what we see and that's vital part of any hooker or halfbacks game.

We have big Alex, Mose and Sav that are big and powerful and attract 3 defenders but they never look to offload.

We struggle to get out our own half. It's vitally important our back three return that ball off the kick better than they do and get us on the front foot to get out our own half. Quinlan is one of the worst kick returners ive ever seen in rugby. He's dead with the ball so he looks to pass or just go down and the momentum stops dead. Dawsons kick returns again are very poor, he's like a Backrow running it in and again we don't get on the front foot. To be fair to swifty he does return the ball well so can't knock him. Every team knows they can kick to Quinlan and Dawson and will stop any chance of us getting a roll on.

It's so important those first to carries on kick returns as 9/10 that's what gets teams on front foot to make good meters. Look at wigan they have bowen, Charnley and Burgess who return the ball very well. Leeds have Hardaker, hall and Briscoe.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:43 am  

Dux wrote:

One advantage of having tall, strong, heavy forwards is that it's difficult for the opposition to wrap up the ball and there are plenty of opportunities for offloads. You only have to watch Leeds to see how damaging this can be. But you can see from the body language of our forwards that offloads are basically the last thing on their mind. They don't look for them at all (unless the game is getting away from us). Again, the knowledge that we won't offload makes it easy for the opposition to pile numbers into the tackle which then restricts our yardage.

This is one of our biggest problems alongside our discipline. I mentioned in a earlier thread somewhere that KC is playing a percentage game thats not working, believe it or not but we are the best team in super league for the least amount of errors.
The problem is that its at the expense of our defence, we very rarely have a game plan based on dominating the tackle to give us extra seconds, our game is a sliding defence and not committing too many players around the ruck. This gives the opposition extra yardage on each play and also opens up plenty of offloads for them, if there was a stat for conceding offloads I would bet we are one if not the worse team.
In reality this is this is "dumb play" by coach and players and should be lessons learnt now by now courtesy of Leeds beating us 3 times.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:44 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I think so, as you know KC is quiet speaking and being dropped in the deep end as rookie coach I get the feeling he's still has a mindset of 70% coach 30% player. Its going to take another season for him to have more influence on players tactic and discipline wise.
He is as you suggested earlier, learning by his mistakes if we were mid table its obviously a concern but I think Superleague is so up and down KC can get away with building up his learning curve, the problem is Saints fans want it "NOW", good coach and good players at the same time is a difficult one these days.
At the moment my concern is that KC has no advisory and he might drop into a blinkered state, perhaps Millward can open up some technical options.

Funny you should say how quite he speaks as someone at the club jokingly said that potter talks louder than him and that's saying something.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:46 am  

I did not want KC last year I think you have to move away to show your worth in a side with less resources.

I really wanted us to bid for Powell.

However now KC is in charge.we are comfortably in the top 3 and made a semifinal. Probably the 2nd best team in the cc and would have beaten anyone but Leeds. And we were not far off them.

Warrington showed what a hammering by Leeds is really like.

Calling for the coach 6 months in for what in any other business would be a good set of half year results is crazy.

But we need to start looking outwards. I get the loyalty but we are looking very insular on the backroom staff. New ideas come from difference not everyone knowing the same stuff.

Even at Liverpool with their famous backroom staff it was not everyone, just a few with experience brought in from elsewhere.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:52 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

I did not want KC last year I think you have to move away to show your worth in a side with less resources.

I really wanted us to bid for Powell.

However now KC is in charge.we are comfortably in the top 3 and made a semifinal. Probably the 2nd best team in the cc and would have beaten anyone but Leeds. And we were not far off them.

Warrington showed what a hammering by Leeds is really like.

Calling for the coach 6 months in for what in any other business would be a good set of half year results is crazy.

But we need to start looking outwards. I get the loyalty but we are looking very insular on the backroom staff. New ideas come from difference not everyone knowing the same stuff.

Even at Liverpool with their famous backroom staff it was not everyone, just a few with experience brought in from elsewhere.

I for one don't want him sacked yet. After all we are 3rd and got to the semi as you say. I didn't want KC In the first place as I suspected this due to him never ever coaching a team in the past. Id liked us to have brought a old head in as coach for two years so he's learning his trade as assistant and not learning his trade as first team coach.

I'm more worried for next year as we ain't going in the right direction with recruitment/retention.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:04 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

However now KC is in charge.we are comfortably in the top 3 and made a semifinal. Probably the 2nd best team in the cc and would have beaten anyone but Leeds. And we were not far off them.

Warrington showed what a hammering by Leeds is really like.

Calling for the coach 6 months in for what in any other business would be a good set of half year results is crazy.

But we need to start looking outwards. I get the loyalty but we are looking very insular on the backroom staff. New ideas come from difference not everyone knowing the same stuff.

I agree, we are looking insular, we need an advisory someone outside looking in like a Sheens, Bennet, Anderson, Millward to assess and open up the game plan structure. Its a frustrating one for saints fans having to deal with performance and game plan inconsistency.
Its like you said crazy to throw the towel in with KC, his mental toughness is being tested but he's not one for giving up and he's got 6 games to turn things around.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:14 am  

I'd give him 2 years. But the rest of the coaching can be moved around in the off season.

If KC wants to coach the attacking side then as a left field suggtion why not Harris on defence.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:16 am  

Judder Man wrote:

I agree, we are looking insular, we need an advisory someone outside looking in like a Sheens, Bennet, Anderson, Millward to assess and open up the game plan structure. Its a frustrating one for saints fans having to deal with performance and game plan inconsistency.
Its like you said crazy to throw the towel in with KC, his mental toughness is being tested but he's not one for giving up and he's got 6 games to turn things around.

In principle I agree with you but if we do that is it not an outward indication that he needs help? If we had done that from the off then I think it would have been fine but to bring someone on now would probably be perceived as a slap in the face to KC.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 am  

Allez wrote:

In principle I agree with you but if we do that is it not an outward indication that he needs help? If we had done that from the off then I think it would have been fine but to bring someone on now would probably be perceived as a slap in the face to KC.

It probably dependant hows its done man management wise to not undermine his authority, he's self critical anyway so knows he's got a lot to learn. Would like to see him and the coaching staff go off to OZ for a short spell off season similar to a McBanana scenario.

Re: First Words of KC's Reaction : Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:48 am  

St pete wrote:

Funny you should say how quite he speaks as someone at the club jokingly said that potter talks louder than him and that's saying something.

I thought Potter was a waste of space to be honest, caught him a few times texting on his mobile phone quite a few times during game in play.