Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:37 pm  

I also don't have problem with kicking early providing we put good kicks in. We failed to put the ball in touch in that first 20 when leeds had a roll on which I couidnt beleive that walsh or KC couldn't see we needed to stop their momentum.

Also, you've got to ask why we are kicking early. Is it becsuse we can't make the meters up field like we was doing early in the year ?

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:43 pm  

The kicking thing gets me because we do it regardless of the opposition. It's either extreme arrogance or blind ignorance but we approach every single fixture with that same tactic - kick early, make teams come from their 20, defend them, control territory. It's fine against most but Leeds are just far too strong in the back 3 for it to work. Their attacking game means giving them so much ball is always likely to result in points as well.

I also think it shows a lack of confidence in our own attack. Why not attack Leeds ? Why not tell Leeds that we fancy our attack on you ?

It's difficult to fathom.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:01 pm  

SLS wrote:

The kicking thing gets me because we do it regardless of the opposition. It's either extreme arrogance or blind ignorance but we approach every single fixture with that same tactic - kick early, make teams come from their 20, defend them, control territory. It's fine against most but Leeds are just far too strong in the back 3 for it to work. Their attacking game means giving them so much ball is always likely to result in points as well.

I also think it shows a lack of confidence in our own attack. Why not attack Leeds ? Why not tell Leeds that we fancy our attack on you ?

It's difficult to fathom.

It certainly crazy tactic kicking down the throat of a back three like leeds have unless you find touch and if you don't there back three will burn you.


Tactically I don't think KC is up there yet. He might learn in time but this is the first time he's coached any time at all so it's to be expected.

Nathan Brown was very good tactically. The way he got us to adapt to all the injuries we had and change the way we played in short period of time was real top class coaching. What that guy did last year with the injuries we had was notning short of worldclass coaching. No halves avsilable to him and with flash and Wello our halves in the grand final it's a miracle we won.

Brown got a lot of stick on here but he was a good coach and the players loved his coaching. He built us back into a title winning team with his tactics and very smart recruitment and retention.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:15 pm  

St pete wrote:

It certainly crazy tactic kicking down the throat of a back three like leeds have unless you find touch and if you don't there back three will burn you.


Tactically I don't think KC is up there yet. He might learn in time but this is the first time he's coached any time at all so it's to be expected.

Nathan Brown was very good tactically. The way he got us to adapt to all the injuries we had and change the way we played in short period of time was real top class coaching. What that guy did last year with the injuries we had was notning short of worldclass coaching. No halves avsilable to him and with flash and Wello our halves in the grand final it's a miracle we won.

Brown got a lot of stick on here but he was a good coach and the players loved his coaching. He built us back into a title winning team with his tactics and very smart recruitment and retention.

You won't hear a bad thing from me about Brown. I fully agree that he put the club back on course.

The manner in which he won us the league was built on aggression. He recognised following Wigan butchering us at home last year that we were far too passive. The result was an ultra aggressive defensive style that rattled teams, all teams, and we prospered from it. He also enforced the conservative rugby, through no fault of his own, as he had no other options following the loss of every pivot we had.

My worry is that Cunningham is maintaining the extreme conservatism regardless of us having pivots and also without the aggression. I posted all preseason that I felt we'd stroll the title again this year as with fit pivots and the aggressive style of forward play we have, I didn't see anybody living with us. However, we simply aren't following the remit Brown left us with. Teams have also found a way to play us, nobody takes us on without 5 props anymore for instance. Ultimately though, we should be doing better.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:41 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Sure, Swifty is an excellent broken field runner. Unfortunately he's standing 40 meters away from our pack. If one of our props hits the tackle, spins and offloads we do not have anyone in the immediate vicinity who is capable of exploiting gaps in the defence. Yes, Roby could do the job. But you can't seriously expect Roby to do MORE than he's already doing?

The player receiving the offload doesn't have to have the legs to go the full length of the field. He just has to take it up 10, 20 maybe 30 metres and by then he should have some support backing him up....and if not, well that's decent yardage forward.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:28 am  

Mugwump wrote:

. If one of our props hits the tackle, spins and offloads we do not have anyone in the immediate vicinity who is capable of exploiting gaps in the defence.

Quinlan?
It appears that Leeds know how tro beat Saints. Conversly, we don't know how to counter their play.

In all the games leeds have dominated the tempo of the play and we've been fairly helpless because of it.

Our playing Roster kept us in touching distance perhaps, but there was a clear winner throughout imo.

We just need to figure out Leeds like they've figured out us.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:15 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Quinlan?
It appears that Leeds know how tro beat Saints. Conversly, we don't know how to counter their play.

The notion that we're suddenly facing novel and magical tactics for which there is no answer is completely and utterly misplaced. Saints used a very similar strategy under Millward whenever we faced Bradford's big pack.

Fortunately for Millward his tactics paid off. But there were many times when we were absolutely hammered by the Bulls.

You have to remember that any team, no matter how good, that enters the field with the aim of offloading as often as possible early in the game is taking a risk. All it needs is for one or two players to briefly switch off and fumble the ball and you can be eight, maybe twelve points down in ten minutes.

What Saints need to do is INCREASE that risk - on every tackle. You do this by putting people in their faces and playing ... for want of a better expression ... nasty. At Warrington I counted TWO genuinely hurtful tackles which we inflicted upon the opposition (one by Burns on JJB, the other by Mose on Peacock). That's just nowhere near good enough given the forward resources we have available. If you know the opposition is putting all its energy into getting ahead in the first twenty then you have to be prepared to not just match that energy but exceed it. Once Leeds hit the 20th minute in front they've stolen the initiative and sans some catastrophic collapse - the game, too. But it's an entirely different question if you ride out the early onslaught because then you use the weight of your opponent's expectations against him.

Far too often we just seemed to REACT to one of their forwards turning and then offloading instead of PROACTIVELY employing the double strategy of attacking the ball carrying arm and pressurizing the likely receiver. By doing so you ratchet up the risk of a dropped ball or some other mistake on every play. Building pressure and controlling the initiative are the keys to winning big games. In three games we've barely said hello to either. As stated - they are the team taking risks. I can't say whether Cunningham and company feel that provided we just stay in line and watch the distances between each other sooner or later Leeds will have an off day - but if they do they are nuts. We have a massive pack. It's about time we started using it to tee-off on the ball carrier. If he wants to dump off a pass - make him pay for it. No player likes getting hit in the act of releasing the ball because they are leaving themselves wide open. In the event of him making the pass - we should already be tracking the likely receiver (this is where the guys doing video analysis earn their corn) and putting pressure on him, too.

As for kicking - you put it down the tram lines. Even if it's only 20m that's far, far better than kicking it down the throat of the back three which keeps the ball in play - further tiring us out. If our kickers aren't confident enough going long then tap it out short. Each time our lads get a nice rest, we take the steam out of the game and time ticks away.

Closer to the line I'd only be thinking of one thing - another set. Indeed, early in the game I'd be quite happy to sacrifice the opportunity for penalties or even four points just to keep them dropping out from behind the sticks. Indeed, the number of times I would keep going for repeat sets there'd be people angrily telephoning SL over "conduct not within the spirit of the game"

There'll be a few old men blowing bubbles in their side defending our pack on their goal line for eight or nine sets in a half.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:32 am  

Mugwump wrote:

... let Uncle Mugwump put things into context.

Whilst the Challenge Cup semi was admittedly a blow - no amount of defeatist sophistry can change the fact that we were four points down with fifteen minutes remaining.

Bear in mind that our props were forced into double-shifts because of the loss of two second row forwards. One of which was having no problems churning up yards against the opposition whilst the other has been our most potent try-scoring forward in the games he's played.

Bear also in mind that over half of Leeds' points were directly attributable to a single player, who is clearly not fit and unable to defend adequately.

I realise that many of you are completely unable to shake off your Leeds Inferiority Complex (from henceforth - LICX) but I very much doubt that Leeds would have performed anything like as well had the boot been on the other foot.

The Cup is gone. Forget about it.

Right now we need to concentrate on winning games that are far more important than any we've played so far in the competition. Champion sides play the COMPETITION - not the opponent. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about three losses to the Not Champions provided we take home the prize.

Given the absolutely horrible fortune we've had with injuries which has robbed us of three or more key personnel in just about every game we've played this season quite frankly I'm amazed we are where we are.

Leaving questions about individual talent to one side - this is UNQUESTIONABLY the most courageous Saints side in my lifetime. Last year it had similarly rotten luck and yet it clawed tooth-and-nail to the Grand Final. Then it had to contend with the minor inconvenience of having NO PLAYMAKERS TO SPEAK OF for 78 minutes - and yet somehow, against all the prophecies and prognostications of the same old crop of doomsayers, it did what was "impossible".

So far this season we've turned in a similarly heroic effort. With all the crap we've had to contend with (no Walsh for half the season and now a crocked Walsh, the long-term loss of two of the form back row forwards in SL, the loss of what was a highly-promising full-back in Lomax to two cruciate ruptures, then the loss of his replacement - who also happened to blow out in similar fashion the season before, the loss of one of the most dependable and potent wingers in SL - then throw in all the other injuries such as Percival's etc. etc) the fact that we are a SINGLE POINT off the top is astonishing. No Saints side in my lifetime has ever scrapped as hard. Under Millward we regularly endured blowouts away from home. Even under Anderson - in his best season - we took some hammerings. This league campaign we've failed to contest two - maybe three games. Isn't that cause for celebration?

I really don't understand many of you. What PRECISELY do you WANT from this side? Or would you still be unhappy if we won every game - for ever more?

I can't stop you guys from whining and bellyaching like the runt jackal in the litter whose nose has been shoved out of the meat. But next time you feel the urge - spare a thought for the lads currently busting a gut - FOR YOU - under incredibly challenging circumstances. No side has EVER had to contend with playing a Grand Final without a single playmaker. And no Saints side I can recall has ever fronted up as courageously at this point in the season whilst having to contend with what seems like an unending injury nightmare.

If the season was over now I'd still be proud of this bunch. They are a team of CHAMPIONS and it's about time some of you gave them the credit they've surely EARNED and DESERVE.

Forget about Leeds. Let them think we're a spent force. Completely incapable of matching them in "all departments" etc. etc. Suits me down to the ground. With the misfortune we've suffered we shouldn't be anywhere close to the top of the table. Just look at Warrington. We have absolutely nothing to lose here. On the other hand Leeds must now win both the Challenge Cup & the Grand Final or be classed as one of the greatest chokes in the history of the competition.

I equate our current position to the end of the second act in Star Wars. Obi Wan Kenobi has been cut down by Vader and everyone is in tears. The righteous forces of the rebellion (us) are hopelessly outgunned "in every department" and yet our plucky heroes are making a last ditch stand - speeding toward the Death Star in their tiny X-Wing fighters with The Force at their backs.

"Biggs, Wedge, let's close it up. We're going in. We're going in full throttle."

Before touching on anything else. Your comments on Anderson's reign are factually wrong. In his best season the most we lost by in the league was 4 points, hardly a hammering.

Then, you want us to CELEBRATE, the fact the Champion team (as you keep saying) Have only failed to contest 3 games! Wow.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:17 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Quinlan?
It appears that Leeds know how tro beat Saints. Conversly, we don't know how to counter their play.

In all the games leeds have dominated the tempo of the play and we've been fairly helpless because of it.

Our playing Roster kept us in touching distance perhaps, but there was a clear winner throughout imo.

We just need to figure out Leeds like they've figured out us.

We seem to play pretty dumb against Leeds this season and let them play to there strengths, we should have been in their faces slowing the PTB and offloads, with a long kick and chase game. Instead we gave them loads of time and space by giving easy ball to Hardaker and letting there pivotal players run across our defensive line looking for a weak defender or waiting for an angled runner. Leeds attacking options were good because they had a low error count in those first 20 mins and were allowed to operate their game plan.
Lots of games this season we have given teams plenty of momentum early in a game and we end up playing catch up, a lot of teams know how to play us, we are not very smart or too late in adjusting the game.

Re: Before waving the white flag and QUITTING... : Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:58 pm  

JLM32 wrote:

Before touching on anything else. Your comments on Anderson's reign are factually wrong. In his best season the most we lost by in the league was 4 points, hardly a hammering.

Then, you want us to CELEBRATE, the fact the Champion team (as you keep saying) Have only failed to contest 3 games! Wow.

BBC team of the year that year...we won everything. Incredible team spirit. Top defence and fantastic to watch. Think Hull tonked us by a point at our ground that year with a Cooke drop goal. Leeds thrashed us by a point too.