Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:26 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Losses in 2013 are irrelevant if the forward projections are improving.

As for the money to build the stadium, from my understanding it was mostly converted into share capital and/or directors loans.

Any break even or profits will be after the interest is repaid on those loans. So therefore built into the profits and losses.

There are a couple of companies that will not make profits this year, but their share price will increase when the losses are published due to the market seeing the bigger picture financially.

Clubs like Saints have no share price as such and so only the clubs statement can be seen as a reflection of this

Not quite!
You can't dismiss turnover down and losses increasing from £1.6M to £2.4M because projections look good !

The club was always supposed to return to profit last years, new stadium, return from Widnes, increased attendances etc. I believe a 10,000 average crowd was considered to take us into modest profits.

In the Chairman's statement in the accounts the catering company going bust gets a lot of the blame as does the team's performance and injuries !

The EBITDA performance in 2013 was materially affected by the catering company going into liquidation, the early Challenge cup exit and a slow start to Super League as a result of injuries to key players all of which reduced earnings by £791k from hospitality, gate receipts and also the bad debts incurred as a direct result of the caterers' bankruptcy in 2013.

Obviously the caterers going bust cost a lot of money but nowhere near £2.4M - you have to ask who the hell credit checked them?
Anyway we have taken catering in house so hopefully that is now a profit centre and not a drain anymore. We have taken 314 new mainly part time staff on as a result which you have to admire the club for doing.

The fact of the matter is that the club continues to rely on the loans from Mark Coleman's Singaporean company which increased its loans by another £2.8M to £10.6M to whom we should all be thankful to. The fact that he essentially owns the club is neither here nor there in my view, there has been no need to go to the banks etc which would only come with very tight strings and would be very expensive.
We should indeed be proud we have no external debt.

I sincerely hope that Sir Mac is correct about this year's forecasts but it is probably correct as they will know from their management accounts where they are up to with over 9 months of the financial year gone already.

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:36 pm  

There was also the unexpected cladding cost. Which was hundreds of thousands. Which will add to the total.

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:44 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

There was also the unexpected cladding cost. Which was hundreds of thousands. Which will add to the total.

700 -800k wasnt it? Plus internal stuff was still going on according to mcmanus?

Can someone send me a link to the figures please? I'd guess though:

1mill for depreciation of assets. (stadiums lose half their value as soon as you drive them off the lot )

300-400k for the catering going bust.

200k for ongoing overheads and long term financing structures.

And what do you know, were in (cash) profit...

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:30 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote: Positive report on the financial side of things. He has said no more than Mike Rush said in his interview with Rugby League World a few months ago. Coleman financed the fitting out of the stadium with a loan of £3 million to be repaid at a favourable rate. McManus himself shared that bit of information publically at the time.

Offside Monkey wrote: Positive report on the financial side of things. He has said no more than Mike Rush said in his interview with Rugby League World a few months ago. Coleman financed the fitting out of the stadium with a loan of £3 million to be repaid at a favourable rate. McManus himself shared that bit of information publically at the time.

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:33 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

He has said no more than Mike Rush said in his interview with Rugby League World a few months ago.

Coleman financed the fitting out of the stadium with a loan of £3 million to be repaid at a favourable rate. McManus himself shared that bit of information publically at the time.

Interest charges for the 2012 season were £288,754. We'll have to see what they are for the 2013 season.
Depreciation was £504,217

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:54 pm  

Interesting that so many buy the smokescreen. Losses are significant and the debt to Coleman's company is get pretty serious. A potential withdrawal by him has been covered off I take it?

I also question how they can suggest we'll be breaking even when they lost so much money last year? How much difference has the Sky deal made for example? Not £2.4m a season, surely?

Also, the reduced gate receipts they talk of will continue. They won't come close to selling as many season tickets, particularly if we do limp out of the play offs as expected. The brand of rugby being played at the moment just isn't St Helens and the quality of games is at an all time low. We used to rightfully be called the Entertainers. How many can claim to have been entertained this season? How many, even on here, could hand on heart say they'd sign up again if it wasn't for loyalty to the club? No trophies this season (Hub cap doesn't count).

Will they release an official club statement when we hit the 10 years without a trophy mark? At the end of the day that's what the fans care about. Sure it's great that the club is only losing £2.4m and not in liquidation, but would anyone on here not give up the forecasted break even position for a Grand Final victory?

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:03 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

700 -800k wasnt it? Plus internal stuff was still going on according to mcmanus?

Can someone send me a link to the figures please? I'd guess though:

1mill for depreciation of assets. (stadiums lose half their value as soon as you drive them off the lot )

300-400k for the catering going bust.

200k for ongoing overheads and long term financing structures.

And what do you know, were in (cash) profit...

Cladding costs (additions to long leasehold items) are £444,670

Depreciation costs for the stadium are £274,031

Catering going bust, no actual figure stated although written statement lumps the bad debt together with early CC exit and general poor performances as the reasons for overall reduced revenue of £791k. I can see the bad debt being the bulk of that unless Saints were making ridiculous advance payments.

Financing costs are £244k although these aren't going anywhere and will be an on-going costs.

You are still looking at a loss of circa £1.4m. That requires a big increase in revenue to turn around into even a break-even position especially in what continues to be a difficult economic environment. Taking the whole hospitality/catering operation in-house is a big risk in my eyes.


The one thing that should be of a concern for the game overall is a reduction of 43 playing and coaching staff during the period. I would presume this is in some way linked to the merging of u18s and u20s but cannot be beneficial for the game overall.

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:18 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Interesting that so many buy the smokescreen. Losses are significant and the debt to Coleman's company is get pretty serious. A potential withdrawal by him has been covered off I take it?

I also question how they can suggest we'll be breaking even when they lost so much money last year? How much difference has the Sky deal made for example? Not £2.4m a season, surely?

Also, the reduced gate receipts they talk of will continue. They won't come close to selling as many season tickets, particularly if we do limp out of the play offs as expected. The brand of rugby being played at the moment just isn't St Helens and the quality of games is at an all time low. We used to rightfully be called the Entertainers. How many can claim to have been entertained this season? How many, even on here, could hand on heart say they'd sign up again if it wasn't for loyalty to the club? No trophies this season (Hub cap doesn't count).

Will they release an official club statement when we hit the 10 years without a trophy mark? At the end of the day that's what the fans care about. Sure it's great that the club is only losing £2.4m and not in liquidation, but would anyone on here not give up the forecasted break even position for a Grand Final victory?

Can always be relied on to get behind the club with a good news story.

ROgues is more positive about Saints than you.

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:01 pm  

So just had a proper look.

First off the bat I was thinking of the wrong year (always a good start)

Total depreciation was on tangible assets was £1,069,000 (hey I was pretty close ) carried forward from 2012

Despite a big drop in turnover, the cash flow was only impacted by £87,000 - a good effort all round.

Short term creditors and total liabilities are down roughly 200k.

The stadium continues to be a massive bonus for the club - and for all the what if crowds, if we packed it in tomorrow they'd walk away with 11mill - after demanding what they put in of course. I bet were one of very very few clubs in rl who'd be in that position.

It's very easy to see how the numbers could be altered to show a break even next year, with increased tv revenue, lower building costs and continuing to drop our liabilities...

Ps Interestingly the documents make reference to sold players - did we sell anyone in 2013?

Re: Club Statement : Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:36 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Ps Interestingly the documents make reference to sold players - did we sell anyone in 2013?

Would Saints tell us who they sold if they did sell anyone?